I've lived in Colorado long enough to find my way around. Nope, not from California, but from the great state of Oklahoma.

Not rude either, your comments resulted in my posting. You took the first shot at me with the trusty rusty comment, and I fired back. So, the next time you brush your teeth, have a nice look at the dickhead staring back at you.

I'd say you're the one with the arousal problems. Nothing was ever mentioned about the pretty boxes until you mentioned it.

I posted a question basically because I was curious what others did regarding initial load development and the number of rounds fired. And, by looking at the results of the poll, it would seem that there is almost a 50/50 split between those who use either a 3 or 5 shot group. What you do could be 180 degrees different than what I do, which I'm 100% fine with that too. In the end, we're both ending up with a similar result, which for me is shooting game and for you winning metals at factory matches. To each his own. Good luck at your next shoot!

Looks like its all good to me, fantastic trophies and probably better memories. Thanks for posting those pix. You can't post to many for this critter to enjoy.
Best
GWB

I like 4 for load dev. 5 is wasting ammo IMO for just load dev. I use 4 because I may throw one of just 3. If 3 of 4 are what I want them to be with a certain load, then I load up a batch of that particular load and shoot 3 shot groups to verify consistency. May not be the best method, but it works for me

Have a good one,

Reloader

Something went south on log in ! ?.

Kabluewy ; I served a tour plus in V N ,so I identify with that .

I also worked on #4 of those continents when I was younger ,so it was an Advantage in regards to my Hunting .

30 years ago a close friend owned a ranch in Kenya nearly the size of Kansas ,another advantage !.

About out spending anyone in the Game Dept., Only if you count the Taxidermy ,then I can assure ALL of You

I out spent MYSELF !!!!!!!!. That doesn't happen any more , meat and hides come home no more mounts and no

more wall hangers .







[/QUOTE]

I said rude, I meant rude. Nobody took a poke at you. My comments were directed at the general thread. But that makes no difference, you're still an ass. Learn to live with it. You must be from out past the tree line, not too many asses shoot at Red Castle.
When did you find out about brushing teeth? Was it after you moved to Colorado?

quote:

I've always wondered about those 4th and 5th shots being so much more effective on actual game, in actual field conditions, but that is actually lacking in my realm of experience. Thus it's great to read of those with such expertise.

Well here is how effective those 4th and 5th shots are whit one of my rifles,

Not that I have a lot more expertise than many here, but I can hold my own.

Another rifle, 5 rounds with the stock I got with it and factory ammo,


Same rifle working up loads after swapping stocks. The bottom left groups are 5 shots each with two different primers,

This stock still needs a bit if sanding down the channel.

quote:

Each group was shot off the bench at Pearland Shooters club,

Geedubya,
Might have to get with you one of these days down there. I am a member myself. I was out this past weekend at the bow range. Might have met you over on range 1 one afternoon, do you shoot a few double rifles?

Back to the Original question ;

OK this is why I shoot #5 , If #3 touch and #2 go slightly errant the load may have possibility's !.

With slight tweaking . OK now if all those rounds scatter I needn't bother revisiting that load !.

So say a cold shot goes to slightly different POA and the rest follow into a single ragged hole ,

well that's a KEEPER LOAD . Now if all the shots stay within MOA or less and their hunting bullets

with hunting loads in hunting Rifles those are KEEPERS also . Refining the load to a particular Rifle is

what makes our Quest Noble ones !. I enjoy the hell out of taking an old M1 Garand or O3A3 or ?

and making them muster hand loads under MOA ,on a consistent bases . Not just one time wonders but dependable

Rifles with Dependable Accuracy . I put nearly 3K rounds a month down range out of various calibers I re load

for . Excessive yes I guess so but what else am I going to do with that allotted time ?.

I shoot off Bags over stumps in Ditches Prone Sitting Kneeling and Standing , do I need to probably not .

I do it to discipline myself to be as good as I can be because real world hunts don't include Bags

Most of the time (I used my bedroll sleeping bag in NZ for that Tar ,it was COLD snow and a long shot ) .

Bottom line shoot as many as you feel comfortable doing and practice as you think you need to .

It's worked for me . On an African trip in 81 with friends ,a PH took us to sight in our Rifles

he saw I had no sticks . He asked me about that I replied I had never used one . After we all shot

and everybody was breaking out ,he told me I didn't need any either and was impressed with my cycling

a second round and hitting the mark . I'm no David Tubbs never will be either ! ,it makes you feel good

that a professional Hunter knows you can handle your weapon and told you so !.

So # 3 , # 4 # 5 or more it's a personal choice isn't it !!!.

quote:

Originally posted by Mke / Tx:
Well here is how effective those 4th and 5th shots are whit one of my rifles,


Another rifle, 5 rounds with the stock I got with it and factory ammo,

I'm impressed. Very

KB

My dearest friend wasbeeman,

Since reading comprehension is not your strong suite, I'll put it in simple terms for you to understand. You posted the following:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
From the post, I assume that you shoot 3 rounds and if they are acceptable, you put old trusty rusty in the closet until hunting season whilst you spend your time in cyberspace talking that talk.

When you say, "From the post, ..." this statement refers to the origin of the post, which came from me. You went on to say, "...I assume that you shoot 3 rounds and if they are acceptable, you put old trusty rusty in the closet until hunting season whilst you spend your time in cyberspace talking that talk." Which refers directly to me shooting old trusty rusty and spending my time in cyberspace talking that talk, while waiting on hunting season.

You go on to say:

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Nobody took a poke at you. My comments were directed at the general thread.

Well, I'll disagree with you about this also from your previous post on this thread. Therefore, out comes the ole

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
But that makes no difference, you're still an ass. Learn to live with it.

Take a long look in the morning at that face!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
You must be from out past the tree line, not too many asses shoot at Red Castle.

Uhhh, ok!!!

quote:

Originally posted by wasbeeman:
When did you find out about brushing teeth? Was it after you moved to Colorado?

PM me your address, I'll send you a ten year supply of toothbrushes! I've seen stories on 20/20, Dateline and such about the rampant "Mountain Dew Mouth" you folks in Tennessee have kindly termed because of the lack of dental hygiene. And just to think, you've even gotten Pepsi Co. to help pay the dental bill when a simple toothbrush twice a day would solve your problems.

OK, enough of the pissing contest! You can go back to punching paper! Shoo!!!

Sincerely your friend,

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
So, when working up a new load or testing new components, do you shoot 3, 5 or XX shots for each varying load?

I realize some are going to say I use the ladder method, but once you have found your nodes, when confirming your harmonic node, how many shots do you work up?

Well I'm getting tired of reading posts from these old poofters rattling their false teeth at each other. And I can only laugh at those who post pictures of dead animals to validate some method of load work up.

I picked "some other number" because it really depends. Part of workup is chronograph data, so I can see how my reloading approach, components and firearm are working together. Part of workup is group accuracy. Workup is different if I'm working on a 30-30, versus a .270W, or 44 mag pistol.

quote:

Originally posted by dla:

Well I'm getting tired of reading posts from these old poofters rattling their false teeth at each other. And I can only laugh at those who post pictures of dead animals to validate some method of load work up.

Part of workup is chronograph data.
Part of workup is group accuracy.

That's funny. I'm raattling my false teeth at you now - hear um, whipersnapper?

Ya missed the point of the posting of the dead animals. That wasn't so much about load validation, as it was just because - for the fun of it. I likeed the pictures, but then I'm easily amused.

You're right about the cronograph. I forgot about that. I think it's important, and a useful tool, and the information it provides makes the whole process more fun. However, it doesn't make a load shoot more accurately, it just records and shows data. Like I've done for so many years - before these newfangled gadgets, sonny, - I just shoot for groups, and estimate the velocity.

Best regards,
KB

quote:

Back to the Original question ;

OK this is why I shoot #5 , If #3 touch and #2 go slightly errant the load may have possibility's !. With slight tweaking . OK now if all those rounds scatter I needn't bother revisiting that load !. So say a cold shot goes to slightly different POA and the rest follow into a single ragged hole, well that's a KEEPER LOAD.

Now if all the shots stay within MOA or less and their hunting bullets with hunting loads in hunting Rifles those are KEEPERS also . Refining the load to a particular Rifle is what makes our Quest Noble ones !. I enjoy the hell out of taking an old M1 Garand or O3A3 or ? and making them muster hand loads under MOA ,on a consistent bases . Not just one time wonders but dependable Rifles with Dependable Accuracy.

Doc,

I am with you on this for sure. It might take me half a year to be fully satisfied with the load I worked up for a particular rifle. All of my rifles and 98% of my handguns are for hunting, and I want them all to be spot on with cold bore shots first, and the others to be able to follow that one. I might piddle with several powders to find what I am looking for, but like you say, this is part of why we do what we do, rather than plopping down the cash for a random mix of over the counter fodder.

quote:

Well I'm getting tired of reading posts from these old poofters rattling their false teeth at each other. And I can only laugh at those who post pictures of dead animals to validate some method of load work up.

dla,

I agree with you on the rattling for sure. Seems there is hardly a question asked anymore where it doesn't show up in some form or fashion.

As to my pic of dead critters, it wasn't so much of a load work up validation, as the results of that validation. IF the group spreads out as the rounds multiply, then you can't hit where your supposed to. Granted not everyone will dump a full magazine while out hunting, heck most don't in a full season. Im my case, there has been times, when I have dumped two as fast as I could get them loaded and back on target. When we get the chance to put on a drive for the hogs, my bud and I usually let the younger folk do most of the walking, and we do most of the shooting. Might only be 3-4 that bust out or two dozen or more.

quote:

I picked "some other number" because it really depends. Part of workup is chronograph data, so I can see how my reloading approach, components and firearm are working together. Part of workup is group accuracy. Workup is different if I'm working on a 30-30, versus a .270W, or 44 mag pistol.

Well, at least have an OK day

Heck I didn't even pick a number, because your right it does depend. I generally chrono while I am dumping powder and working up. I usually look for a specific velocity range with the combination I choose. Once I hit it, then I might tweak the seating depth a bit or not, it depends on what I am seeing as I work up. Depending on the firearm I usually shoot 50yd for handguns, 100yds for the mid sized calibers and 200yds for anything based on an '06 size case or bigger. Once I feel good about a load I might stretch it out another hundred yards or more depending on what I might use it on. If it holds I usually leave it be, if not I might tweak it a bit, but I like to keep things as small as I can. Just takes one more thing I need to think about out of the equation. I shoot and hunt from a variety of places and positions with a solid rest and with out. I don't want to have to worry about, "is this the shot that is going to hit high right or low left", when I am peering through the sights, out of breath or shaking with adrenalin, at the sight of a truly big buck.

Doc,

You bring up some interesting points and reason for shooting 5 shots.

Here is a group I shot on Sunday. This load was 92% of what I determined to be max for IMR7828 (average of six sources) and was the second group shot that day with a 180 gr Barnes X bullet. I don't remember the exact sequence of shots but they were something like the following:

Shot 1 - low
Shot 2 - high
Shot 3 - high
Shot 4 - low
Shot 5 - high



However, this is a rough work up and my first trip to the range with this powder/bullet combination. Therefore, the next session will be finer powder charges around the 69.9 gr weight. If something shows promise after the next session, then it will be seating depth, as seating depth now is about 0.12 off the lands because of fitting into the magazine.

In all honesty, this rifle needs a trip to the gunsmith for a little bedding work IMO.

Greybird,

A couple of thoughts/questions from a self confessed meat hunter, that has no training, but 20 years experience loading say 55 different chamberings from 17 cal to 45 cal and owning and shooting over a hundred different centerfire rifles during that time.



180 gr. tsx & 69.9 gr IMR 7828 @92% of max. What is this,300 Win, 300 Wsm, 338 Win Mag or even 325 wsm?

By 92% do you mean load density?

How many rounds since you cleaned the barrel

You mentioned a trip to the rifle doctor. Is this a stock factory rifle, is it pressure bedded or free floated, glass bedded, pillar bedded? How's your trigger?

Checked to see if scope is mounted properly and all screws tight.(bases and rings. Are scope rings lapped and no stress on scope.

Good rest (both you and the rifle)

Did you throw your loads or trickle them

Are you using a chrono to tell your extreme spread and/or std deviation in regards to velocity.

OAL's. IRRC, doesn't Barnes say to load .030 to .050 off the lands?. If this is a commercial chamber, chances are you won't be able to do that and load in a magazine. I'd start with SAAMI Oal's or at least manual OAL's then go longer.


awful lot of variables.

Best
GWB

Geedubya,

See my answers within your post.

Thanks,

Graybird

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:
Greybird,

A couple of thoughts/questions from a self confessed meat hunter, that has no training, but 20 years experience loading say 55 different chamberings from 17 cal to 45 cal and owning and shooting over a hundred different centerfire rifles during that time.



180 gr. tsx & 69.9 gr IMR 7828 @92% of max. What is this,300 Win, 300 Wsm, 338 Win Mag or even 325 wsm?

300 Win Mag. I took the max load for a 180 gr bullet from 6 different reloading sources and had an average of 76.0 grains

By 92% do you mean load density?

Average of the above is 76 grains. Therefore, 92% of 76 = 69.9 grains.

How many rounds since you cleaned the barrel

Barrel is cleaned after evey session; therefore, since I'd shot only one 5 shot group prior to this one, 5 rounds had gone down the barrel. I've heard of Ruger barrels needing to be dirty to shoot well. Who knows?

You mentioned a trip to the rifle doctor. Is this a stock factory rifle, is it pressure bedded or free floated, glass bedded, pillar bedded? How's your trigger?

Stock factory Ruger M77 laminated, which if I'm not mistaken are pressure bedded. Trigger has been redone at 2.5 lbs. Very smooth and crisp!

Checked to see if scope is mounted properly and all screws tight.(bases and rings. Are scope rings lapped and no stress on scope.

Scope mount secured with breakable lock tight.

Good rest (both you and the rifle)

Shooting from bags with a very steady rest, no drifting and trying to use proper form with every shot. Shooting 5 shots takes around 4 minutes to complete and then allow barrel to cool for minimum of 10 minutes under shade.

Did you throw your loads or trickle them

Loads were thrown with RCBS Chargemaster. Calibrated before use.

Are you using a chrono to tell your extreme spread and/or std deviation in regards to velocity.

I did not. I wasn't worried about velocity, more worried about precision at this point.

OAL's. IRRC, doesn't Barnes say to load .030 to .050 off the lands?. If this is a commercial chamber, chances are you won't be able to do that and load in a magazine. I'd start with SAAMI Oal's or at least manual OAL's then go longer.

I am planning on shooting another set of groups at the following charges: 69.5, 69.7, 69.9, 70.1 and 70.3. If precision is still there, then I was going to start working my way from current seating depth to OAL suggested in Barnes manual. At this time, I was planning on setting up the chrony and collecting data.

awful lot of variables.

Ain't that the bloody truth!!!

Best
GWB

Greybird,
My Barnes #4 manual indicates the following for 180 gr. TSX and MRX bullets:
IMR 7828SSC @ 68.0 to 74.0 grains. Seventy four grains in the Barnes manual is given as 94% load density. The COAL given in the Barnes manual for either bullet is 3.340 OAL. Ballistic co-efficient is listed at .473 and sectional density is listed at 271. Velocity ranges out of their test barrel at the load densities listed above were 2,773 and 2,972 fps.

The manual also indicated by asterisk (*) that the most accurate load in their test was using IMR 4831, 65.0 gr to 71.0 gr (97% load density), with velocities ranging from 2,784 to 2,995 fps

Loads listed by Barnes employed Fed 215M primers.

A couple more thoughts, hopefully constructive (or at least taken that way)........

I typically do not load on averages. I load specific bullets based on that manufacturer's manual or the powder manufacturer's guideline. In other words, I do not load a 180 gr Sierra based on a Speer, or Nosler manual, only on Sierra and for that specific bullet. I will also follow the Hogdon, Alliant, etc. manual (usually on-line or their annual publication) based on the specific bullet type. Call me nuts.

I know it takes more time and hassle, but I almost never shoot targets unless I'm shooting over a chrony. To me its kinda like driving without a speedometer, tach, water/oil pressure gauge. I like to think I know whats going on. I very seldom shoot over three hundred yards at game. If I plan to, I make sure I shoot the load at 100, 200 and 300 yds to know where the bullet is actually going. However, knowing the velocity of your rounds, taken with the ballistic co-efficient and angle to target and zero sure helps when you do need to make that occasional 600 yd shot. Knowing the deviation in velocity of different powders/load densities also adds to my confidence level/comfort zone when choosing a hunting load.

Best
GWB

GWB,

I've got the same Barnes #4 manual.

Barnes' published max is 74.0 grains. If I'm at 69.9 grains, then I'm around 94-95% of Barnes' published max. Also, I'm shooting the IMR7828 and not the SSC version.

I've loaded all of these rounds going off the ogive, which I've stopped at 2.828, which is 0.12 off the lands on this rifle. I took some quick measurements on the OAL of 5 random rounds for my next test session. Average of those equalled 3.411 COAL; therefore, I'm 0.071" longer with my current COAL than what is printed in the Barnes book at their recommended max of 3.340. Maybe the COAL I'm currently set as is too long for this rifle and I need to be closer to what is published by Barnes? As I mentioned, I was going to start moving back towards published COAL after the next session with 5 loads between 69.5 and 70.3 grains of IMR7828. I was hopefull to find a powder weight within this session and use it specifically to start playing with the COAL testing, or in my case OAL-ogive.

Having not put this load over a chrony yet, I'd expect them to be in the lower 2800 range or upper 2700 range. For me at this point with this rifle, speed is not my concern. I'm looking for a precise load I can rely upon come August in the Eastern Cape!!!

Thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
Plus you shoot smaller groups that way!!

I've always wondered about those 4th and 5th shots being so much more effective on actual game, in actual field conditions, but that is actually lacking in my realm of experience. Thus it's great to read of those with such expertise.

KB

It has nothing to do with shooting at game.

I have shot tons and tons of sub-1" groups but I keep going. So those 2 extra shots mean my average group size is larger.

When I get groups that are 1" to 1.5" for 5 shots, then I'm happy.


1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.



1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.


I passed this bear up... not big enough...




Whatya know? 1 shot...


Real hunting.

i usually start with 3 shots, that will tell me if i want to try that load again. if it shoots a 2 or 2.5 in. group i dont load it. when i get a good group. then i load 5 more to see if it is true.

Demonical,

Nice set of animals and pictures!!!

Congrats,

Like many of us I don't have a range right out my back door. So I usually load 5 of each, and shoot 3 to start with and if it looks promising I'll send the other 2 in behind them. And when I get home all the unused loaded rounds get dismantled and load adjusted accordingly.

quote:

Originally posted by Geedubya:

I'd be more concerned with the ~100fps extreme spread difference from these 2 groups using the same components.

Though not a choice in the OP's poll, a one shot group will always boost one's confidence.

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:

quote:

Originally posted by Kabluewy:

quote:

Originally posted by Demonical:
Plus you shoot smaller groups that way!!

I've always wondered about those 4th and 5th shots being so much more effective on actual game, in actual field conditions, but that is actually lacking in my realm of experience. Thus it's great to read of those with such expertise.

KB

It has nothing to do with shooting at game.

I have shot tons and tons of sub-1" groups but I keep going. So those 2 extra shots mean my average group size is larger.

When I get groups that are 1" to 1.5" for 5 shots, then I'm happy.


1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.



1 shot kill.


1 shot kill.


I passed this bear up... not big enough...




Whatya know? 1 shot...


Real hunting.

Nice pics, someone has a freezer full of meat! Very nice indeed!

To me, the differences between 3 or 5 shot groups don't matter much.

I much prefer loads which shoot two shots from a cold barrel close together at 100-150 yards, but most importantly, always to the point of aim.

Small groups may matter for benchrest but for my hunting loads what matters to me is where the first two shots are going to go.

So, I fire three two-shot cold-barrel "groups" with any load I'm developing for a hunting gun, letting the rifle completely cool between groups, and taking it off the bench. If those three pairs are not satisfactory, that load is done right there, and not used.

If they are satisfactory, I shoot two or three more such groups. If everything still looks good then, I probably have a useful hunting load.