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What can I micrometer do that a dial caliper can't? Why one vs. the other? Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue.  What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | ||
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A dial caliper, or the electronis equivalent, can only go to 3 places of decimal. Micrometers, on the other hand, can be had to measure to at least 2-3 more places of decimal. I use one of these for measuring the bullets we make - I am not in the workshop right now, but think it measures to 5 places of decimal. | |||
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Saeed, Thanks! Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Saeed is on the right track. Normally one cannot rely on a caliper to measure better than +/- .001 and a micrometer can measure to +/-.0001 We are assuming the use to be of calibrated instruments and in experienced hands. | |||
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Well the second part of your qualifying phrase counts me out Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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Wooden Yardstick VS Steel Machinests scale Caliper VS Micrometer Both will do the job, but one is more precise. For doing OAL and other typical reloading checks, a Mic is overkill. For precision work, a caliper is not precise enough to be trusted. Most (99.98%) reloaders don't need anything more precise than a decent steel caliper | |||
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I have 5 of 6 calipers and 5 or 6 micrometers. My best calipers can be skillfully operated to get .0002" accuracy and .0001" resolution. My worst calipers can be skillfully operated to get .0050" accuracy and .0001" resolution. My best micrometer can be skillfully operated to get .0001" accuracy and .0001" resolution. My worst micrometer can be skillfully operated to get .0010" accuracy and .0001" resolution. The devil is in the details, I have only one really good set of dial calipers and all but one of the micrometers are good. | |||
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Back before dial or digital caliper had taken over the world the standard caliper was the vernier caliper. The vernier is just as accurate as the dial or digital types on the reading feature was different. Calipers are highly dependent on user technique. When making heavy cuts it is normal to measure with calipers down to about ±.010. When taking the final finishing cuts you measure with a micrometer. Verniers were called "Very Nears" for a good reason. | |||
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First off, the measuring quality of most calipers available for under $100 is not as good as that of most micrometers. It is possible to build good quality into calipers, but the principles on which calipers work is different from mics...the caliper uses a toothed rack, while the mic uses a screw thread. Apparently it is easier to get precise performance from the screw thread than from the toothed rack. Read carefully what the spec sheet says on any caliper you consider buying. Even if it has a dial which apparently reads to .0005" (half of one-thousandth), the spec sheet which accompanies it will almost always say "Accurate to +/- .001". That really means it is only guaranteed to be accurate to within .002" ......001" on the plus side of actual dimension, and .001" on the minus side. Put another way, an item .100" thick could be read on that caliper as being .099" thick or .101" thick, and both readings would be within the guarantee. For most handloader's purposes, that is perfectly adequate, but not for all. The best place to ask this question and get the full "skinny" might be on a tool & die makers forum. | |||
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My 2 sets of Brown and Sharp Calipers cost less than $100 each and are as good as the opperator  Besides probably not many of us out there have a jo-block set to check our calipers and our mics at the range we are measureing at. Most of us do not check our tools anywhere except zero. I have to check all of mine once a year in 4 places to be ISO/TG compliant for all of my mold shop tools. You will find that more than a couple mics read zero but not .5000 with a .5000 jo-block this requires collet adjustment. ________________________________________________ Maker of The Frankenstud Sling Keeper Proudly made in the USA Acepting all forms of payment | |||
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I have 4 dial calipers including one plastic one, also one true vernier caliper, none read exactly the same as any of the others especially when comparing inside to outside, the plastic one seems just as (in)accurate and (un)repeatable as the others. I also have 4 micrometers, all read & measure within 1/2 a thou and most are dead-nuts on the blocks. One eventually-developing problem with calipers is undue wear at different points on the blades, from friction when measuring. In my early years I worked in the tool room of a pole line hardware manufactory and the tool room supervisor had a cute little vernier caliper he used to check our work-in-progress. Seems that he was always finding different dimensions on different occasions, making us somewhat tight in the jaw as you can imagine, and our suspicions were eventually aroused. We stole his caliper, checked it, and then enshrined it in clear epoxy (so he couldn't retrieve it!) inside a picture frame along with a spec sheet showing the blade wear, up to 0.005" in places. We of course bought him a new dial caliper, the dial ones were brand-new back then, and all was once more right with the world. I find calipers are OK within about 0.002"-0.003", otherwise I use micrometers. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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There is at least one exception...My cousin has a patent on a coolant proof calculator [I have one] that uses a phase detector on 3 phase magnetic coupling. That one has .0005" resolution, but more accuracy. If I switch back and forth with inches and mm [and fool with calculator], I can often resolve better than .0005". I asked him to write some special software for me, to give me .0001" resolution, but so far he has not agreed  | |||
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 I have mics and calipers. I doubt that during any reloading function that I,ve used a Mic more than twice in the last 30 years; maybe longer.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Hi Mike, The technical answer is that your measuring instrument needs to have 10 times better accuracy than what you are trying to measure. In other words, if you are trying to measure an item repeatably to an accuracy of .001 inch, you need to have a measuring instrument that can resolve down to .0001 inch. Now I know somebody is going to come back and hit the ceiling that their caliper can measure .0005 inch or less resolution and the answer is if they can exert exactly the same measuring force time after time, they might get some repeatability but two different people will not get the same results. So bottom line is, if you want to measure .001 accurately and repeatably, us a mic. If you are trying to measure finer than that, use a good mic and mic it several times until you can repeat your readings. Calipers are for ballpark comparisons, although if a couple of thou is in the ballpark, you are fine with one. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
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Hi, Roger! I certainly agree with you for either hunting or across-the-course target shooting work...calipers seem to me more than adequate for those applications. Most of the time I use a 38-year-old mechanical Mitutoyo 6" caliper for handloading purposes. I have Starrets, and even some rather pricey Swiss electronic calipers, but hardly ever use them unless I need the zero-setting feature. There IS one RELOADING purpose for which I ALWAYS use .000050" MICS THOUGH.... In my Heavy Class cast bullet benchrest rifles, I run a case neck fit which is a .0001" to .0002" interference fit in the chamber neck. (In other words, the chamber has to swage the loaded cartridge case neck down by .0001" or a little more when the cartridge is seated for firing. I'll immediately throw in here that no one should EVER try that with a jacketed bullet round...it could be very harmful to rifle and shooter, and maybe even bystanders. Most people who aren't really equipped to handle those dimensional tolerances should never ever try it in any rifle with any kind of bullet. Anyway, I use the 50/millionths mics when neck-turning brass for those rifles. Of course probably no home hobbyist can maintain cuts to that measuring range, but it is nice to have and use a tool which can measure much more accurately than I can reliably cut on my home equipment. And yes, I use it in a temperature and humidity controlled room...in which my component preparation is always done for all my rifles. Actually my whole shooting shop is temp and humidity controlled. Makes it a lot easier to cut things to close dimensions when the tools, lathe and all, are held to a specific temp/humidity range. | |||
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Most definitely agree with most of what is being said. I am a production machinist and we don't use calipers unless we have +/- .010, even then most of the time we use the appropriate micrometer. All of my tools are calibrated once a year as the company I work for is ISO 9001 certified. I have been thinking about how different bullets are different shaped. I was thinking about machining a ring with the critical diameter of the bullet then standing the cartridge in the ring and measuring with a digital height gauge. I was thinking about doing it this was a different bullets have different profiles and tips, making the length different. What really matters is how far off the full diameter is from the rifling. What do you think? | |||
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Hey AC where have you been ?. Some of us were beginning to worry about you !. Glad to see your still up right !!!!!!!!!. | |||
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Been there and done that. It's a joke! | |||
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why? I haven't encountered anything that would make me say that. | |||
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Because it offers no quality whatever to your product. It's more political than anything and besides you have to pay for it. If your management wasn't capable of installing a viable QC program then ISO will fail as well! | |||
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Sounds like a a crude Stoney Point or Sinclair comparator... ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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There are three ways of measuring using a dial/digital calipers. A mic only one. I agree mics are generally much more precise as I have a digital to 5 places. A dial/digital caliper may be used as a depth gage, a step gage, ID and OD. Micrometers need several seperate tools unless we are talking about an anvil mic and you have the attatchments. The best thing to do with plastic caliper is to test the hardness of the closest ball peened hammer. Plastic calipers stretch very easily and can give inaccurate measurements to the untrained. Just my observations. Andy We Band of Bubbas N.R.A Life Member TDR Cummins Power All The Way Certified member of the Whompers Club | |||
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My father designed per mil specs and so did I in the 70s and early 80s. He said it was a barrier to entry for smaller companies. One can see ISO9001 as the same thing....small companies need not apply. And I can operate my favorite calipers better than most machinists can operate their micrometers [It really pisses them off!] But then I know someone who can play a rubber band better than I can play my guitar. That does not make rubber band better than guitars or calipers better than micrometers. | |||
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X 2 rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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That is already commonly done by benchrest shooters, and I can recommend it to you as a useful approach. They generally use a set of calipers with an attachment to the moving jaw which has such a ring. The bullet is placed with its base on the non-moving jaw and then the ring is advanced until it touches the bullet ogive and a reading taken at that point. The same device can be used to measure the overall length of loaded cartridges too. You mentioned doing it with different makes and shapes of bullets. I suggest you try it with 10 bullets picked at random from the same box of factory bullets...any brand except those made by benchresters for benchresters (and they can hardly be called "factory" as they are pretty much all hand made one a time). Anyway, you will find that factory bullets from the same box may vary as much as .005" or more from the base of the bullets to the points where the ogives are bore diameter minus .0001" and would therefore touch the rifling. That's why the very best quality seating dies do not push on the pointy end of the bullet, but on the ogive where it is approximately bore diameter. Usually those dies are custom made and ain't cheap!! | |||
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Thanks very much to both of you. I took a siesta for several reasons...one being ill health, and another being that I found I was getting too involved in some of the threads. I also found I have developed a real aversion to reading statements that "such & such is a POS", or that "so & so is the only way to do....", and that "the .482 Whimper-Inducer is the best caliber, bar none, for shooting pygmy giraffe", et. al. I don't mind opinions...we all have them, but I found I could no longer stomach self-ordained living-God-delivered fiats. So I had to take a break. And now I will try harder to avoid getting involved in threads which involve absolute statements of "best", "worst" or similar extremes. As Scottish Rite taught me long ago, but I had somehow forgotten, no one knows absolute truth, and to cope well with life we need to at least look at equilibria...the balance which exists in all things. Anyway, best wishes to you all. AC My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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How true! How very true! Regards 303Guy | |||
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Hey superscifi12, I'd say you are correct. And anyone that doubts it can easily prove it for themselves. By the way, You can do these measurements with a Cleaning Rod and a Flat Tip Jag, use it like a Dimensional Transfer Rod. Just have to go slow at the muzzle. | |||
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That's one thing I can say is we have a whole department just inspecting the parts at a random using a chart based on how many parts are in the individual pan. It's a big deal when your parts are rejected, either 100% the parts or trash them depending on how many were bad out of the batch (also factors in is the cost to produce the part) and about the small business not being able to get the ISO. That must depend on what you consider small business. At full staff with temps we probably have 120-150 people(nights and days together), Normally is it less then 80 now it is less then 40 | |||
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and you don't need ISO to do this. | |||
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The value of any kind of certification is what you do with it. If ISO 9000 or CMM Level 5 becomes the "ends" instead of the "means" to the end then it loses its value. Some companies do a very good job of implemenitng ISO 9000. Unfortunately many companies implement ISO 9000 as well as other types of "quality standards" but they implement them on paper only and they worry more about the theoretical process than they do the practicie of quality. Mike Legistine actu quod scripsi? Never under estimate the internet community's ability to reply to your post with their personal rant about their tangentially related, single occurrence issue. What I have learned on AR, since 2001: 1. The proper answer to: Where is the best place in town to get a steak dinner? is…You should go to Mel's Diner and get the fried chicken. 2. Big game animals can tell the difference between .015 of an inch in diameter, 15 grains of bullet weight, and 150 fps. 3. There is a difference in the performance of two identical projectiles launched at the same velocity if they came from different cartridges. 4. While a double rifle is the perfect DGR, every 375HH bolt gun needs to be modified to carry at least 5 down. 5. While a floor plate and detachable box magazine both use a mechanical latch, only the floor plate latch is reliable. Disregard the fact that every modern military rifle uses a detachable box magazine. 6. The Remington 700 is unreliable regardless of the fact it is the basis of the USMC M40 sniper rifle for 40+ years with no changes to the receiver or extractor and is the choice of more military and law enforcement sniper units than any other rifle. 7. PF actions are not suitable for a DGR and it is irrelevant that the M1, M14, M16, & AK47 which were designed for hunting men that can shoot back are all PF actions. 8. 95 deg F in Africa is different than 95 deg F in TX or CA and that is why you must worry about ammunition temperature in Africa (even though most safaris take place in winter) but not in TX or in CA. 9. The size of a ding in a gun's finish doesn't matter, what matters is whether it’s a safe ding or not. 10. 1 in a row is a trend, 2 in a row is statistically significant, and 3 in a row is an irrefutable fact. 11. Never buy a WSM or RCM cartridge for a safari rifle or your go to rifle in the USA because if they lose your ammo you can't find replacement ammo but don't worry 280 Rem, 338-06, 35 Whelen, and all Weatherby cartridges abound in Africa and back country stores. 12. A well hit animal can run 75 yds. in the open and suddenly drop with no initial blood trail, but the one I shot from 200 yds. away that ran 10 yds. and disappeared into a thicket and was not found was lost because the bullet penciled thru. I am 100% certain of this even though I have no physical evidence. 13. A 300 Win Mag is a 500 yard elk cartridge but a 308 Win is not a 300 yard elk cartridge even though the same bullet is travelling at the same velocity at those respective distances. | |||
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 The same was true of Mil I 45208, Mil Q 9858A and ZERO DEFECTS, Statistical Process Controll. The intents are always holy but the practice is a little devilish. Taking a step backwards in the right direction, who of you have actually used an in side out side set of 1940s calipers? rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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I still have a set of vernier calipers from that era, Roger, but I'm sure glad I don't have to use them anymore. My eyesight is way too antique to read those suckers easily! I also still have a couple of slide rules, but I much prefer my electronic calculators.  My country gal's just a moonshiner's daughter, but I love her still. | |||
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I still use my Starrett verniers but I'm so near-sighted (20-800, -13!) that I remove my glasses to read the scale. I can also read the vernier scale on a surveyor's transit without a magnifier...I still have my Father's old slide rule as well as my own but haven't used 'em in many years now, almost forgot how. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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I wish we could throw both our eyesight problems in a tub, blend them, then split the results 50/50, Joe. I don' wanna say I'm far sighted, but to see my pickup I have to park it so far off in the Costco parking lot that I need to call a cab to get to the truck to drive home....almost.  | |||
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AC, my vision is so bad that when I went to take my physical for the USMC in 1967 (at the height of the Viet Nam war), they turned me down! BTW my old Trinidad roommate Dennis Sorensen is from Standard, he lives over in BC now on the coast. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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No kidding! I do believe Dennis used to shoot full-bore with us in Calgary on the Palomino Range at Sarcee Barracks (King's Own Calgary Regiment). I was VP of the KOCR Military rifle Association a couple of years, responsible for each Sunday's full-bore match program. I'm not certain if I actually ever met Dennis, but know of him for sure...a damned fine shot. | |||
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Me. And in modern history. BTW, specifications and standards have nothing to do with quality. It is the capability of the process that determines the quality. ISO conformance is nothing more than writing a set of procedures and then being able to prove that you actually follow them. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Bingo! People seem to believe ISO is a measure of quality where it is simply a method of insuring you are building to your spec`s everytime. If your process is a good one, quality will be as good, if not, your poor quality build will be very consistantly. ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
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Seems to me that what you're talking about with this ISO stuff is the difference between QC and QA. QC (quality control) ensures how good your product is, while QA (quality assurance) ensures how good your QC program is. In some ways it reminds me of the difference between precision and accuracy, with the mikes and calipers. Precision is the ability to get the same repetitive result or close to it every time (very narrow spread of results but not necessarily close to the true actual), while accuracy is the ability to come close to the actual dead-nuts sought-after result without regard to whether the repetitive results are close to one another (spread of results may be wider but they all cluster around the true dead-nuts actual). Sorta like shooting for group vs shooting for score, small groups show precision while high scores show accuracy. Two approaches to the same problem, use each where appropriate and both where possible but it's better if you don't have unrealistic expectations of the results. Regards, Joe __________________________ You can lead a human to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America! | |||
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