I re-did the scope rings on this Savage 112 FVSS today and went to the range to re-zereo. I was using a load of (IMR 7828 79.5 grns under a 150 grn Sierra HPBT). I had loaded up thirty rounds two nights ago and mid way through went to eat, then completed the session. At the range today the first few rounds were from the rounds I loaded first no problems, I then grabbed a round from the end of the loading session and had to tap the bolt back. The bolt lifted ok, but would not come back. Went back to the rounds that I had loaded earlier in the evening and no problems. When I got to the rounds that were loaded after I ate the sticking bolt came back. I just pulled two rounds and weighed the powder charge and they are right where they are suppose to be. The last range trip was about 8 to 10 degrees cooler . I did get a hard bolt lift at 81.5 grns while running a ladder and stopped last range trip.

Do you think that 91 degree temp and the temp change would create this problem, or do I have something wrong with my bolt?

I would look at the brass first. How many loadings and have you annealed the necks?

hrs
yes your 91 degree's did affect your reloads,it makes them show pressure signs earlier than normal.dont mix your brass they all weigh different which affects internal powder volume, and pressure. my older sierra manul states 79.3 grains of imr 7828 being a max load with reformed 8mm rem mag brass and a federal 215 mag primer.remmber to measure your case head expansion,magnums are .7 thousands max and non mags are .5 thousands max. enjoy and be safe the STW''S one ausome round,i own 2 myself, regards

The first ten were new never shot FL sized. The rest were once fired, Fl sized in a Lee die. Did not anneal once fired brass before loading. Had not planned on annealing for several more rounds.

I just resized all of the brass. It appears that the die is not sizing all the way to the belt. There are die markings that stop about a 1/16th to 1/32th inch from the belt. This is on all the once fired and twice fired brass. I have the Lee die set so that I have to cam over the handle at the bottom of the stroke.

Heat will very much affect your pressure. I've given up trying to do load workup during the heat of the day in the summer, it just doesn't work. I have a chronograph and watched as my somewhat mild loaded 140 gr ballistic tip in a 7mm rem mag went from 3150 fps on the first shot to 3390 fps with a sticky bolt lift by the fifth shot. In the summer heat I've found that I will get velocity(pressure) increases with each subsequent shot every time. It doesn't matter how much you try and let the barrel cool after each shot, if the temp is 90 or hotter they just won't cool down, especially if they're not under a shaded roof. The only thing I've found that works is to pull my truck up next to my bench and leave it running with the air conditioning going full blast. I found I can make it work if I leave the ammo in the truck and put the rifle in the truck to cool off for about five minutes after each shot. This is obviously a pain in the rear so I pretty much wait for fall to do my load work or do it the first hour after daybreak in the summer.

I think it is temp. I am going to back down to 78.5 and shoot them for my upcoming pig hunt. Now I am woried about my 59.5 grn of H-4831SC under a 130 grn Sierria. I hope that is not going to give me trouble in August?

If I switch from IMR 7828 to H1000 would that help on temperature sensitivity?

I'm sitting here on my first cup of coffee but I'm having trouble seeing how TEMP is causing the first problem. You say you loaded all the cases same day just some before some after dinner. All loads before and after weigh the same even checking them now. If it were a heat problem is would affect all your loads.

The cases before dinner were new the ones after were once fired. Did they grow enough to be jaming into the front of the chamber? As to the die issue. I would see it not sizing all the way down causing an issue with chambering not extraction. If you have a bad chamber (like a slight bulge) a couple 1000psi could make it harder to extract.

As to temperature. I've never seen any of the 200+ fps increases caused by pressure. That takes a change of 10-15,000psi. I have seen 25-35fps changes from very cold to very hot. Which is more in the 2-3000psi range (like an extra grain of powder) If you are sitting on the edge of pressure problems 2-3000 could cause problems. I never load that close anymore and never worry about temperature.

Try keeping your ammo in a cooler with a a cold pac at the range.I have had ammo that I shot at 45 degrees F show signs of high pressure at temps in the 90`s.About 10 years ago at The Super Shoot I noticed other shooters using coolers for their ammo.Since I load ahead ,and not at the bench,I have noticed much more consitancy in my groups and no signs of pressure.None of these loads are at Max.In fact best acurracy is often at your starting loads.Give it a try!!!!

Ramrod340: Thanks for talking some sense on the "temperature sensitivity" issue. My experiences are similar to yours, and are based on 40+ years of handloading.

All powder is somewhat subject to performance variations with temperature variation. But it was only when the Madison Avenue guys working for Hodgdon started hyping it to promote their line of Australian-made powders did it become an issue with handloaders. (If you'll note, the handloaders who are most worked up about "temperature sensitivity" are those who were born at least 10 years after I started in the business.)

Harold's problems are undoubtedly related to something other than ambient temperatures. However, I'm afraid we simply don't have enough information to make an informed guess as to what the nature of his problem is.

quote:

Originally posted by Harold R. Stephens:
The first ten were new never shot FL sized. The rest were once fired, Fl sized in a Lee die. ...

Hey Harold, Once a case has been fired and Resized(still empty), how does it feel if you chamber it and close the Bolt on it? Does it feel different than closing the Bolt on an empty chamber?

I prefer my Bolts to close with just a small amount of resistance on a Case(and Cartridge), but I'm not where there is Dangerous Game to deal with. Even though you are "Camming Over", the Cases might need just a bit more Resizing. If so, we will address that later when we know how it closes on an Empty-Resized Case.

quote:

I just resized all of the brass. It appears that the die is not sizing all the way to the belt. There are die markings that stop about a 1/16th to 1/32th inch from the belt. This is on all the once fired and twice fired brass. I have the Lee die set so that I have to cam over the handle at the bottom of the stroke.

The "Burnished" Line around the Case is normal for " ALL " Cases. It is the point were you would measure Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE) if you were so inclined.

It is also the point where Insipient Case Head Separations occur. These can be found with the (good, old-style) "L-shaped" Feeler Gauge made from a Paper Clip with a Chisel Edge to drag up the inside of the Case.
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When you clean the rifle, do you apply a small dab of grease on the Bolt Lugs?

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Hey Harold, Once a case has been fired and Resized(still empty), how does it feel if you chamber it and close the Bolt on it? Does it feel different than closing the Bolt on an empty chamber?

I prefer my Bolts to close with just a small amount of resistance on a Case(and Cartridge), but I'm not where there is Dangerous Game to deal with. Even though you are "Camming Over", the Cases might need just a bit more Resizing. If so, we will address that later when we know how it closes on an Empty-Resized Case.

Hot Core; No it does not fell different from chambering on an empty chamber.

[/QUOTE]The "Burnished" Line around the Case is normal for " ALL " Cases. It is the point were you would measure Pressure Ring Expansion(PRE) if you were so inclined.

It is also the point where Insipient Case Head Separations occur. These can be found with the (good, old-style) "L-shaped" Feeler Gauge made from a Paper Clip with a Chisel Edge to drag up the inside of the Case.
-----

When you clean the rifle, do you apply a small dab of grease on the Bolt Lugs?[/QUOTE]

Hot Core; No, I clean the barrel, chamber and rails then apply a patch with oil to all the above. I would have to say that there would be oil applied in the area of the bolt contact when I am finished.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Ramrod340: Thanks for talking some sense on the "temperature sensitivity" issue. My experiences are similar to yours, and are based on 40+ years of handloading.

All powder is somewhat subject to performance variations with temperature variation. But it was only when the Madison Avenue guys working for Hodgdon started hyping it to promote their line of Australian-made powders did it become an issue with handloaders. (If you'll note, the handloaders who are most worked up about "temperature sensitivity" are those who were born at least 10 years after I started in the business.)

Harold's problems are undoubtedly related to something other than ambient temperatures. However, I'm afraid we simply don't have enough information to make an informed guess as to what the nature of his problem is.

What kind of information do you think may be helpful? I will tell you all that you may want to know about this gun or situation??

right-on
boltman, i guess some texans never shoot in 91% weather!.....hrs i'd double check that 130 sierra load,it sure looks under-charged from where i'm sitting, regards

This sounds like one of those times where one could use a case head space gauge. I believe we have a situation here where your chamber is on the large side and your reloading dies are on the small side. It has been my experience that when this particular situation occurs bolt lift becomes progressively harder as the number of reloads increases. Is there a noticeable ring where the die body stops resizing near the case head (belt)? This situation has happened to me with some of the Weatherby rounds and it is, I believe, directly related to increased pressures as well.

quote:

Hot Core; No it does not feel different from chambering on an empty chamber.

Hey Harold, That is good, but complicates the problem.

Put a small bit of "Grease" on the back side of the Bolt Lugs. Not much, just enough to prevent Galling.

Take "one" of the completely reloaded cases and go around the entire Case(Neck too) with a Black Marks-A-Lot or similar marker. Chamber it and remove it without firing to get an idea of how scratched-up it gets from just doing that. Recoat it if needed. Then chamber it and fire it to see if there is a portion(Pressure Ring, Shoulder, Neck) that gets wiped completely clean, all the way around, as it is extracted.

For those of you who are tired of hearing about " CHE & PRE ", you can stop reading at this point.

The things that give the best chance at figuring out what is going on with the Pressure is to measure both CHE & PRE. If you had the PRE data taken from the Cases that were shot for the First time and compared it to the Reloaded Cases PRE, you would then know if the Pressure had "Increased" or not.

CHE is virtually worthless on the First Firing of a new case, but PRE always works. CHE works on subsequent shots though and is a sure indication of TOO HIGH Pressure.
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By the way Harold, I just sent the 3-9x 44mm Buck Lightning back to Millett. It has a small piece of Gasket Material stuck to the Upper-Right quadrant of the eyepiece. They said to send it back and I'd get an entire "new" scope. It cost me $9.65 to send it back, but he said if ANYTHING happens on the Replacement, they will cover the Return cost for it. Had maybe 25 - 308Win shots on the scope mounted to a Wby U-Lt.

They replaced the Lens Covers(broken retention strap) for the other scope(4-16x 50mm/30mm Buck Gold Tactical) in about 8-work days. I've also had problems with Leupolds over the years, so as long as they are fixing them, I'm happy.

FWIW I think you have two different kinds of brass, one brand new and the other sized in your Lee dies. The brand new stuff extracted easily, the other stuff didn't. So, a combination of chamber and perhaps inadequate sizing (at least compared with the size of the new brass) seems to be the cause.Temperature might come in if you were at the upper end of the pressure spectrum.
Peter.

It will be this weekend before I can return to the range to shoot again. I still have 11 rounds that I had loaded from this last batch.

Hot Core, I will try what you suggest and report back. I like my new Millet 6X25X56 Var5mint. I had planned on putting it through a good box test to see how reliable it was returning to zero, but the bolt problem came up.

Peter, I had resized some rounds after fire forming in this gun the other weekend when the temperature was in the 80,s with this load and did not have a problem.

Buckshot, there is not a noticeable ring after FL sizing. I showed some spent cases to some reloader friends and we observed a flattened primer, as well as a small crescent shape adjacent to the firing pin mark. The most I have resized a case so far is twice.

jjmp, what do you mean by being under charge? Personally, this load shoots really well in the old 270.

hrs
sorry my wrong, thought that was an stw load, regards.