I've always FL or PFLR cases but I recently purchased a neck sizing die. Some reloaders neck size without the expander ball. Does the expander ball unscrew from the expander-decapper assembly and if so do I need to buy another die to deprime? The RCBS neck die that I have has a one piece decap pin holder and expander ball. I suppose I could remove the one piece one and take the decap pin holder off one of the older assemblies and use it to decap?

Clue me in. Thanks

The expander ball unit is made for a purpose,you need it. Never just neck sized,don,t belive in it so don,t know if your decapping pin would be long enough to take old primes out, try it . vangunsmith

Found my own answer, universal decapping die.

If you neck size without expander ball, is it necessary to lube the neck in order to seat the bullet? On the 6mm BR site he says to use froggy's lube. How about graphite powder?

The dimension of the neck-sizing portion of most factory dies reduces the neck diameter of the case far too small to seat the bullet. That's why the expander ball is there to re-expand the neck to the proper dimension to allow the bullet to seat and to hold some tension on it. If you resize (either neck or full length) without the expander ball in most dies, the bullet will seat with too much resistance and may be deformed or scarred.

Some benchrest dies are dimesioned so that the neck is reduced to the right inside diameter without running an expander button through it. Given the variation in brass thickness and chambers, this is not practical for off-the-shelf hunting rifles and brass, so with off-the-shelf dies the neck is sized down too small, then re-expanded.

The best neck-sizing system is the Lee Collet design. Note, I said system and not die. The Lee die is a clever design, but is cheaply built. Nonetheless, I like them and would recommend them if you want to neck size only.

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Originally posted by woods:
Found my own answer, universal decapping die.

If you neck size without expander ball, is it necessary to lube the neck in order to seat the bullet? On the 6mm BR site he says to use froggy's lube. How about graphite powder?

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Oh, for God's sake, don't ever lube the bullet or the inside of your necks! Where did that notion come from? I spend a lot of time meticulously making sure that there is no lube residue inside my necks. Do you think that stuff could possibly be a good adjuvant for gun powder?

Stonecreek

Thanks for your reply. Please go to this website and see what you think this guy is talking about:

www.6mmbr.com/reloadingfroggy.html

Perhaps he had a specially made die?

There could be a reason to not use an expander. Two I can think of is, one, using a bushing die that doesn't oversize a neck from the gitgo, and two, a die whose neck fits your chamber and brass pretty well.

Neck thickness varies, even in wonderful brass. Those variances put a different "grip" on the bullet and that variance can affect accuracy.

If a person chooses not to use an expander in a regular die it's because the fit of the brass is pretty good to start with and the chamber and die are pretty well mated. You can accomplish this without a bushing die by polishing the neck of a die down to the right diminesion, but what happens when the next lot of brass you buy has necks .001" or even .002" thicker? Then you have major grip on the bullet which can throw your accuracy out the window.

Redding, with even their bushing dies, recommends using an expander to "iron out" the inside of the neck for consistent grip. You can reduce the strain on the inside of the neck by polishing an expander way down to just barely touch the walls when you size. If your necks are clean, which you can do with a bore brush, you get consistent friction without lubrication. I don't lube either the inside or the outside of the necks when I'm size, only the body if using a full sizing die. The only thing you need lube for is to prevent a stuck die, nothing else.

My approach to this with big bore rifles wherein I want a lot of purchase on the bullet to be combined with a full case of powder and a light crimp is to turn about .003 to .004 off the expander ball...I think you will find this more appropo..

I know of people over here (strange Europeans, surely ), who lube their necks or bullets before they seat. I have never tried it myself, but the one guy I'm thinking of is not at all a bad shot, an experienced reloader and does quite a bit of competitive shooting.

FWIW - mike

I've run across this subject 3 or 4 times and on the above mentioned web site the guy says he's just using a Redding FL die with expander stem/decapper removed. He says the expander ball pulls the neck out of concentricity. When I remove the stem I get a difference of .045" outside diameter of the case necks. Seems to me that would cause a problem so I have not tried it yet.

I can still get down to .001" concentricity with the expander ball by rotating and resizing but without the stem the neck came out automatically within .001".

Just looking for a better way. Guess I might try seating a bullet in the smaller neck but afraid it might cause a pressure spike because of the grip on the bullet.

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. . it might cause a pressure spike because of the grip on the bullet.

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Not likely, but it won't help accuracy. Polish down your expander a bit at a time till it just touches and extracts smoothly. You can chuck it in a drill or drill press and put 600 grit paper to it, then polish it with J-B or Flitz. You'll have the best of both worlds except when you change brass you might have to buy another expander ball. They're cheap.

lubed necks are likely to cause misfires unless one uses a dry lube, but thats a poor way to seat a bullet IMO...

Just pulling the expander button is not going to work well cause you'll be excessively sizing the necks. Using a bushing die I size .001 under the neck mic'd with a round in it unless I'm using moly and then I go .002, just pulling the expander will probably size .010 or more, too much neck tension.
I use a lot of neck busing dies and always use them for tight necks but with tight necks you always turn the necks as well. The expander throws the necks out for two reasons, case necks being thicker on one side than the other and expander rods being out of plumb.
If you really want to load straight ammo I'd suggest using a Wilson in-line bushing neck die, .001 or less run out as a rule.
Depending on what your loading for perhaps it's not really worth worrying about. If a guys shooting a factory chambered rifle thats a 3/4 to 1 1/2 inch shooter (great for hunting) loading perfectly straight ammo and all the attendant problems that are incountered trying to get it done will still probably net a 1/4 inch improvement or so in groups and might not be worth all the bother. In a 1/2 to 3/4 inch rifle that's a different deal all together taking it from 3/4 inch to sub 1/2 is where it gets fun.

As always the opinion expressed here is the opinion of the idiot giving it (that would be me) and certainly not meant to tell everyone how do things. Just my opinion , no arguments intended.

I'm not familiar with bushing dies. That might be the next step. With a bushing die, do you still use the expander ball?

I've got a 270 that is in the category of 1/4" to 3/4" with a ballistic mil dot scope that I am trying to shoot at 300 to 500 yards at the range. Antelope gun. At those distances every 1/4" matters, so I'm looking for the best method to get consistently low runout. Seems like the expander ball plays hell with that long neck on the 270.

Bushing dies, huh?



Thanks

[QUOTE]Originally posted by woods:
Found my own answer, universal decapping die.

Those $8.00 Lee Universal decapping dies are the cheapest, best thing on my reload bench!

I never use the expander ball for depriming. That alone has ended any stuck case problems BIG TIME!.

Cheers
seafire

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If you really want to load straight ammo I'd suggest using a Wilson in-line bushing neck die, .001 or less run out as a rule.

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I was looking at the L E Wilson bushing neck die and it said "bushings not included". What's up with that?

How about a Lee Collet die?

Woods, there is no expander with Wilson in-line dies. In the Wilson dies you take the case brand your going to use then seat the bullet you plan on using, then mic the neck. The bushing is then usually .001 to .003 less than the mic'd neck.
Wilson dies are also going to require an arbor press. Go to Sinclair International and you can see all the things necessary to use in-line type dies.

Standard dies size a case .007 to .010 more than necessary. The more the case is sized the more you can force the neck off center to the body. Then the expander pulls it back out to about .001 undersize. This is another chance for the neck to move off center.
The Wilson dies size the neck the minimum amount that you decide is needed. Redding makes a 7/8 -14 thread FL and neck dies that also use bushings and permits the same choice in neck sizing dimensions.
The Wilson dies are the choice of a large percentage of benchrest shooters. A lot of bench rest shooters also resort to a tight neck chamber that does not allow the case to open up.
In such a chamber the brass does not even need resizing. Just reprime, charge, seat and shoot.

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Originally posted by ireload2:
Redding makes a 7/8 -14 thread FL and neck dies that also use bushings and permits the same choice in neck sizing dimensions.

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Just so I'm understanding this correctly and don't spend a lot of unnecessary money, if I get Redding bushing die it will fit in my RCBS press and allow me to neck size without working the neck as much and it does not use an expander but uses a bushing instead? I really don't want to spring for an arbor press and go the Wilson way unless I need to.

Redding S dies are the way to go instead of Wilsons. Even their bushings are interchangeable. If you set up your die correctly they'll do the same job as well. Be sure to buy 2 or 3 bushings, you'll ultimately need them anyway. Measure a loaded round at the neck then buy bushings .001", .002" and .003" bigger. You might get by with the .002" bushing alone to start with.

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Originally posted by Bob338:
Redding S dies are the way to go instead of Wilsons. Even their bushings are interchangeable. If you set up your die correctly they'll do the same job as well. Be sure to buy 2 or 3 bushings, you'll ultimately need them anyway. Measure a loaded round at the neck then buy bushings .001", .002" and .003" bigger. You might get by with the .002" bushing alone to start with.

Well, my Redding Bushing die came in and I put it together as instructed, tried it on 5 cases. The runout ranged from .005 to .008.

I changed the length of the decapper, changed the gap for the bushing, changed the amount I threaded it in after touching the shell holder, and backed it out a couple of turns to only size part of the neck. Nothing helped.

So I took it out and used my RCBS FL die like usual and the runout was .002".

What's up with that??

Bob338 has it wrong - you need bushings which are SMALLER than the neck diameter of a loaded cartridge. If the bushing was LARGER, it wouldn't size down the neck enough to hold a bullet at all.

I got the one that was smaller. A loaded 30-06 cartridge measure .331 - .332", so I got the .329" one. The outside diameter is exactly .329" after sizing but the runout was drastically increased.

I think I just wasted my money or I need to throw away my concentricity gauge and stop worrying about it.

While this topic is most intersting, (I do use bushing dies on a match chambered 6/284, and neck only a pet .223)an article I read within the past year (by Rick James in Handloader, as I recall) has me wondering why. In comparing both the accuracy and case life between neck-sized and full length-sized cartridges assembled to comperable quality control standards his stufy showed no appreciable differences between the two. Hmmmmm?

Is the bushing die a neck size die? The run out maybe from your chamber and the full length die is straightening it. Just thinking out loud as I haven't messed with bushing dies or measured run out yet. Ignorance is bliss

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Originally posted by FVA:
Is the bushing die a neck size die? The run out maybe from your chamber and the full length die is straightening it. Just thinking out loud as I haven't messed with bushing dies or measured run out yet. Ignorance is bliss

Yes, the bushing die is a neck size die, and I suppose it is possible that my chamber is out in that the case body may not be concentric with the axis of the neck. It is a Sauer 202 lightweight, not a cheap gun, but that doesn't guarantee anything.

I also got a Lee Collett Die for my 270. Problem is that all my shot cases were already PFLR, so I need to do some reloading and shooting before I can use it.

Wonder if I ought to break out the neck turner, but .005 to .008" is a lot to turn.

When you think about it, if the die doesn't touch the case body, there's nothing to keep the body in line with the neck.

Woods;you ask the rights questions."If the die doesnt touch the case body,there is nothing to keep the body in line with the neck".The best die;a f/l sizer resizing only to "touch"the body of the case(getting the best concentricity of the body of the case),neck area giving .001"-.002"press fit on the bullet.I wont buy a neck sizer Redding or another,I cannot get fine accuracy with it.I cannot understand why neck sizers cannot be accurate with both calibers I owne,probably the chamber of both rifles are "out" of standard dimensions..

You got me curious, so I did some research on Concentricity & Bushing Dies. This is what Redding says,
http://www.redding-reloading.com/techlinepages/concentricity_bushdies.htm

I also use Redding and Wilson NS bushing dies and find both work well. I would however recommend geting a second bushing about .001" smaller than the first one since all cases are not created equal. There are times you'll require that smaller bushing to help get a grip on the bullet.
Also you don't require a press with the Wilson dies. I have several sets of them and get by nicely with a little raw hide mallet. When I use resizing dies in a press I lightly lube the inside of the neck. It makes a difference in getting that expander ball through the neck smoothly, and not pulling the neck out of alignment. Wipe the lube out after resizing with a Q-tip, and you'll have no problems with powder contamination. At least I never have. These are just personal opinions. Others may differ. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal