I was looking at a picture of an Expanding Solid Bullet with the "Rings" around it. Got to thinking about the design and it dawned on me the old, never-fail, always-reliable, totally-safe healthwise, Lead Bullets always had Lube applied to the Grooves. There it reduced Bore Leading and Friction.

Have any of you considered Lubing the Grooves on your Expanding Solid Bullets as a Test?

Do you have a problem with lead bullets?
I kinda like them for some applications.

There may be some case that might be improved by lubricating a mono bullet. However I would consider those cases an issue of design defect if the mono bullet did not work without the lube.

Lead needs more help since it is a weaker metal.

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Have any of you considered Lubing the Grooves on your Expanding Solid Bullets as a Test?

The question is somewhat vague
1. Solids typically don't expand
2. It's not clear if you're talking about jacketed or lead bullets

Maybe you can be a bit more precise about the question.....

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Originally posted by vapodog:

quote:

Have any of you considered Lubing the Grooves on your Expanding Solid Bullets as a Test?

The question is somewhat vague
1. Solids typically don't expand
2. It's not clear if you're talking about jacketed or lead bullets

Maybe you can be a bit more precise about the question.....

Not to put words in anyone's mouth but I took it that Hotcore was talking about TSX type bullets. Triple Shock and Hornady’s new offering fit the description of “Expanding Solid Bullet with the "Rings" around it” (better known to Hotcore as “PCBs”). But then again I could be wrong.

I haven’t tried lube on a TSX, nor am I going to.

Well, I have not tried mono bullets with 'rings' but I do lube my cup'n'core bullets. I do that by dipping the boat tail into molten waxy-lube which forms a 'wax cookie'. I get no copper fouling in that rifle's bore. The excess lube coats the inside of the muzzle device and keeps it from corroding.

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I took it that Hotcore was talking about TSX type bullets. Triple Shock and Hornady’s new offering fit the description of “Expanding Solid Bullet with the "Rings" around it”

I have a few bullets like this from Northfork.....

I'd not consider lubing the grooves of a jacketed bullet......from my experiences with freshly cleaned and lubed barrels the accuracy is best from a dry barrel. The copper in the jacket is and of itself is sufficient lube for the system to work.

I'd guess that lubing the groves with a grease of any kind will cause accuracy problems.

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I'd not consider lubing the grooves of a jacketed bullet......from my experiences with freshly cleaned and lubed barrels the accuracy is best from a dry barrel. The copper in the jacket is and of itself is sufficient lube for the system to work.

I'd guess that lubing the groves with a grease of any kind will cause accuracy problems.

Some points to ponder, Looking at the newer Barnes solid copper bullets with multiple grooves, it would be interesting to experiment with some of the available bullet lubes, to see effect on accracy and copper fouling. I have tried some of their older non or mono grooved (crimping groove only) in my Ruger #1 458 and find they leave a lot of copper.

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Originally posted by SR4759:
Do you have a problem with lead bullets?
I kinda like them for some applications. ...

Hey SR4759, Nooooo, I like them a lot and have ZERO desire to see them be legislated out of existance. Don't want to see the Jacketed Lead Bullets go either.
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quote:

Originally posted by Vapo:
The question is somewhat vague
1. Solids typically don't expand
2. It's not clear if you're talking about jacketed or lead bullets

Maybe you can be a bit more precise about the question. ...

Hey Vapo, I was trying to describe a "Barnes TSX"(or whatever the name is this week) where it is a Solid Bullet that is Designed to Expand and has Rings(or grooves) around them.(Expanding Solid PCBs)
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Hey Mick, Dead on the nose, that is what I was trying to say. The "new" Politically Correct Bullets(PCBs) which will soon cause recreational shooting for the Low Wage folks to be priced out of their ability. Just a matter of time with folks voting the old clinton folks back in power(obummer's "Change").
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Hey 303Guy, I remember you mentioning that before. Sure looks like the potential of "Ringing" a barrel(which I also mentioned before), but Wax and Grease Wads were in general use long before I was born.
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Hey Vapo, You "may be correct" about changing the accuracy, I don't know. May help it.
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quote:

Originally posted by jkingrph:
Looking at the newer Barnes solid copper bullets with multiple grooves, it would be interesting to experiment with some of the available bullet lubes, to see effect on accracy and copper fouling. ...

Hey jkingrph, That is what I was wondering. I still have some of the "Original" Fred Barnes Bullets. In one rifle I have, the accuracy always went down after the 6th shot. Those first 6 were always way more than enough. I have them Moly Coated now though.

But, I was sitting around thinking about running the old Cast Lead Bullets through a Lube/Sizer and then happened to pick up a Gun Rag with the Barnes TSX bullets in an ad. That is what got me thinking about it.

I would find it difficult to believe "no one else" has pondered this before about the PCBs, especially some of the older folks that used to shoot a lot of Cast Bullets.

And I can see if the accuracy of the PCBs is at a level the person is happy with, and little to no Fouling, the question would be, "Why bother with the Lube?" Simply a mental exercise for me, cause as Mick knows the chance of me buying a PCB is the same as me voting for a democrat - ZERO!

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I would find it difficult to believe "no one else" has pondered this before about the PCBs, especially some of the older folks that used to shoot a lot of Cast Bullets.

I have thought of putting lube in the cannelure of a cup and core bullet. In my case a .321 bullet for the 32 Win special that I am going to shoot through a .320 bore GEW 88. I have not really thought about the multi-grooved boutique bullets because I have never bought one, owned one or fired one. but considering all the whining you hear about fouling from time to time it might be a good idea.

Wouldn't the simple approach be to apply Lee's Liquid Alox prior to loading? I've read that the application to lubed lead bullets reduces leading.

quote:

but Wax and Grease Wads were in general use long before I was born.

I am getting good at re-inventing the wheel!
I don't know if there is any real benefit but it just seemed like a good idea (at the time). It does protect the bore and muzzle device from corrosion, though. Anyway, it's fun!
(Doing things differently is always fun! I managed to go against the wind and reduce neck tension on my hornet while everyone else was crimping to get accuracy! But then, my requirements were different).

Oh, the wax wad are used in my No4 - remember my 'new acquisition' with a rust damaged bore? It shoots pretty good and has become my go-to rifle!

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Originally posted by Winchester 69:
Wouldn't the simple approach be to apply Lee's Liquid Alox prior to loading? ...

That might work as well.

I was just mentally picturing "only" the Grooves full of Lube as on a Cast Bullet. Don't have a clue how Alox would effect the Accuracy if it was on the Ogive portion of the bullet.

That was/is the point of moly. I think the greater pressure and friction of a non-obdurating solid bullet exceeds the film strength of conventional bullet lubes. That's why Barnes tried the blue stuff, as well.

That's not to say there aren't more possibilities out there in this hi-tech world.

Not grease, but I moly coated my .257" and .338" XFB bullets I used on plains game in Namibia. But I also anointed each rifle's bore with moly, too.

I guess you could call doing so a 'test.' I wanted to minimize copper fouling, which was prevalent in the now discontinued X bullets, and eliminate any type of bore cleaning while on safari. So, as far as those two objectives were concerned, moly coating of Barnes 'Expanding Solid Bullets' was a success.

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Originally posted by Hot Core:
I was looking at a picture of an Expanding Solid Bullet with the "Rings" around it. Got to thinking about the design and it dawned on me the old, never-fail, always-reliable, totally-safe healthwise, Lead Bullets always had Lube applied to the Grooves. There it reduced Bore Leading and Friction.

Have any of you considered Lubing the Grooves on your Expanding Solid Bullets as a Test?

As a long time cast bullet shooter, I too gave that idea a thought. However, from what I understand, the grooves on the TSX bullet were there to one, reduce copper fouling and two, reduce pressure problems. My best guess is it might work toward increasing pressure more than anything else. Cast lead bullets have a lot more "give" than solid copper bullets. The grooves in the TSX are suppose to help reduce pressure and filling them with a potentially incompressable material would, I think defeat that purpose.
I might be full of stinky brown stuff with that idea, but if one wants to experiment along those lines,I'd sure start low enough and work on up real careful like. Body parts are for the most part not replaceable.
Paul B.

I put Lyman Moly lube for cast bullets in the grooves on the Barnes Banded Monos in an attempt to reduce the metal fouling.

Ended up with loads that smoked a bit on firing but didn't seem to change accy, velocity, or fouling.

Hey Tiggertate, I remember the Blue Barnes Bullets. Never got around to trying any though. There was a company near Charlotte, NC that "Armoloyed" some parts for the equipment we were manufacturing. I'd considered seeing if I could get them to put it on some Bullets for me. Killed the idea because I was not sure I would be able to get the Armoloy out of the barrel if I did not like the Accuracy.

Did you try the Blue ones?
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Hey Dave, I pre-Moly my Bores after cleaning to get them ready also. The old Original Fred Barnes Bullets I have shoot real well Moly Coated.
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Hey Paul B, I agree with your cautious approach concerning the Pressure. At first glance it looks like it would Reduce the Pressure, but that could be Full-of-Beans.
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Hey PWS, How did you get it in the Grooves - fingers? And then just wipe off the excess? Were all the Grooves covered by the Case Neck?

Oh yes, can you measure the width of the Grooves? I'm interested if a regular old BB(0.177") would fit inside the Grooves. I kinda doubt they are that wide though, because 3-grooves would take up a lot of space.

Thanks for the report.
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Does anyone know if the Grooves are different "Widths" on different Caliber TSXs?
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Some of the older Cast Bullet Lubes tended to "harden slightly" after they were applied, which reduced the mess of regular Moly Grease. But they also had to be heated a bit to get them to flow into the Grooves and then run through a Sizer Die.

I also remember something about using a tray of molten Wax with Cast Bullets setting upright in the tray. Then when the Wax hardened, a slightly expanded Case was used to "cut" the Wax coated Bullet out of the tray. I never tried this though and have no idea if they used regular Bees Wax or a mixture. Should be able to remember some of this stuff, but it is gone.

I don't think I would reduce the friction with jacketed rifle bullets.
There have been reports of S.E.E. events with moly coated bullets. I would sure do more research before trying anything.

I tried the blue bullet. Didn't like them any more or less than the regular bullets. I really didn't care too much for Barnes until the TSX.

My gut feeling is that it (greasing copper bullets with lube) may be playing with fire. Loads are worked up with specific properties assumed and when you throw a variable in like that, who knows what can happen? Second, since handloaders are experimenters by nature, I would bet it has been tried and abandoned many times. Ohterwise we would have seen dueling articles in Precision Shooting or other rags: Moly vs Grease! Which is best?!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
I was looking at a picture of an Expanding Solid Bullet with the "Rings" around it. Got to thinking about the design and it dawned on me the old, never-fail, always-reliable, totally-safe healthwise, Lead Bullets always had Lube applied to the Grooves. There it reduced Bore Leading and Friction.

Have any of you considered Lubing the Grooves on your Expanding Solid Bullets as a Test?

Not on a jacketed bullet.......

quote:

Originally posted by bfrshooter:
...There have been reports of S.E.E. events with moly coated bullets. I would sure do more research before trying anything.

Any details? Moly Coated is darn near all I shoot.
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Hey Tigertate, Excellent points.

I don`t know it to work as claimed but, I`ve read the purpose of the "grooves" in mono bullets is to give the displaced copper a place to flow when the bullet engraves the rifleing, and to reduce the contact area between the bullet and bore. Both of these are claimed help reduce pressures when useing this type of bullet. I`d think grease filling of the grooves would defeat this purpose, JMO

quote:

Originally posted by Ol` Joe:
I don`t know it to work as claimed but, I have read the purpose of the "grooves" in mono bullets is to give the displaced copper a place to flow when the bullet engraves the rifling, and to reduce the contact area between the bullet and bore. Both of these are claimed help reduce pressures when using this type of bullet. I`d think grease filling of the grooves would defeat this purpose, JMO

I don't think much metal is displaced into the grooves. After all the rifling is only .004 tall so the metal being displaced is minuscule compared to the huge volume and surface area of the relief grooves. What reduces the pressure is the reduction of total bearing surface that has to be engraved. The remaining driving bands on the bullet are easily deformed by the rifling. I think you could grease the bullets with no ill affects pressure wise. Whether the accuracy or fouling would be improved remains to be tested.

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the metal being displaced is minuscule compared to the huge volume and surface area of the relief grooves.

I'm with SR4759. I have just had a look at one of my fired 'fire-lapping' grooved brass buulets and the amount of displacement into the groove is miniscule. Any compression of lube in these grooves would at worst reduce friction by dynamically lubing the contacting area. Which is what we want. And if it does prevent copper fouling, then friction would be kept down - again, mission accomplished.