Hi all.

I am a newbee to the reloading business, and I've read trough a couple of books. I specially liked Modern Reloading volume 1,that i downloaded. I bought volume 2 the other day, and noticed significant difference in load data. I shoot european catridges, 7x57 and 6.5 swedish, and the latter have typically heavier loads in volume 2, but 7x57 is reduced big time in volume 2. We are talking maybe up til 4-5 grains for the same bullet and powder.

So what changed? The quality of the powders? The scare of lawsuits? Should the data from volume 1 not be used?

Lawyer Loads.

quote:

Lawyer Loads

My old Hornady Vol II states that upper limits were a full case or .0005 head expansion. That would give lawyers a big issue now days.

Both cartridges were introduced 1896 or before and the rifles at that time were designed for lower pressure ammo - more like 45000 psi.

M98 Mausers can handle modern loads of 60,000+ PSI.

There is a BIG difference is the pressure rating of a M88 or 96 and the M98 Mauser.

Some manuals will give you loads for a rifle & action or for a modern test barrel with piezo sensor pressure system. The loads for a M88 or M96 would be mild and no pressure data will be mentioned if the rifle action is used.

Most M96 loads for the 6.5 Swede would also have 28 inch barrels! This makes it more confusing as you get velocities that look like modern loads! On the other hand you could also find a load for a 18 inch carbine that is 300 fps slower! Really confusing.

I would strongly recommend that you get a copy of the latest Lyman manual and read the chapters in the front of the book. Read it 3 or 4 times. Try and get a really good understanding of pressure and how it can change with bullet, powder and case.

I would also recommend using a chronograph

Good luck and be safe.

quote:

Originally posted by aresm:
Hi all.

I am a newbee to the reloading business, and I've read trough a couple of books. I specially liked Modern Reloading volume 1,that i downloaded. I bought volume 2 the other day, and noticed significant difference in load data. I shoot european catridges, 7x57 and 6.5 swedish, and the latter have typically heavier loads in volume 2, but 7x57 is reduced big time in volume 2. We are talking maybe up til 4-5 grains for the same bullet and powder.

So what changed? The quality of the powders? The scare of lawsuits? Should the data from volume 1 not be used?

Thank you for the replies.

I am not an velocity freak, so i will not push the loads. However, I saw that on some loads the max load was the same as starting load in volume 1.

And I'm from Europe, so the lawsuit is not an option for us here.

Again, thank you.

In some cases powder burn rates change, bullet and jacket design/harness change, manufacturers change primers and brass. Some older manuals did not use pressure testing and testfired in a typical rifle then later may use a pressure barrel. JMO

Loading manuals should be used as a guide, only.

Load tolerance for each particular rifle might a lot different to another of the same make and model.

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:
Loading manuals should be used as a guide, only.

Load tolerance for each particular rifle might a lot different to another of the same make and model.

10-4 roger

The Lee Modern Reloading volume 1 has data from Speers #8 manual. Many will agree that some loads are/were over pressure.

This same Speer data is listed in Steve's Pages data. Link Maximum listing may be over pressure.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
Both cartridges were introduced 1896 or before and the rifles at that time were designed for lower pressure ammo - more like 45000 psi.

M98 Mausers can handle modern loads of 60,000+ PSI.

The loads you should follow depend much on your action. Loads for the stronger actions in 7X57 are typically refereed to as +P loads. What I have seen of "Lee data" indicated to me that it is a re-publication of a cornucopia of free data put out by numerous sources over a long period of time. There are much better manuals to be had.

Lee doesn't produce any of their load data, they buy it from powder and component manufactures.
The data from the first book may have come from a different source than the second book.
The variation could also be a misprint the editors missed.
They only give the bullet weight, no brand, they do sometimes have a seperate listing for Barnes all copper bullets. They don't give much info on the loads such as the brass, primer either. All these things do effect the load data.
I have the Lee second edition book, I like it a lot. It has much info on cast bullets that other sources don't have.
I also own several other reloading manuals. Both older books and newer books. When I decide to try something different I consult all the books for starting and max loads.
This helps me reduce the risk of misprinted info.
I recommend that getting several sources of info will help most loaders.
Leo

Let us please remember the OP - "I am a newbee to the reloading business"

Help him get his basics right & then he will become a competent and knowledgeable reloader over time.

Multiple sources of load data is DANGEROUS for a beginner.

Multiple sources will NOT help get the basics right and only cause confusion and self doubt or make DANGEROUS mistakes.

Please help him be safe and have fun

ANOTHER PLUS FOR NAKIHUNTER

AND another conundrum...WHICH RELOADING MANUAL SHOULD BE USE.

MY additional advice is...AGAIN...


READ ALL the fine print in the beginning of the book...Several books...Take what you see online with a LARGE grain of salt, there is a LOT of BS out there, well meaning or not...but also MORE good advice than bad, it's just hard to decide which until you have some "stuff" under your belt...and the nuances that you DON'T understand can take you in a bad place.


LOOK at the SPECIFIC information about the RIFLE/PISTOL that was used to develop the reloading data...

The SPEDCIFIC bullet, primer, case brand, powder type and specific brand, barrel twist and COAL...

AND follow it precisely or as close as possible until you become more knowledgeable...

AND, READ, READ, READ...ask questions, make copious notes at each reloading and shooting session...DON'T go ANAL...variation is the name of the game ESPECIALLY if you have a commercial weapon...learn what those variables are and HOW THEY APPLY. and understand you CAN'T reload exactly...many variables have changed.

MOST of the data coming out of reloading manuals for the past decade or so has been carefully developed to be safe in a multitude of MODERN weapons...this DOESN'T include military weapons coming out of WWI and II...and was developed for the SPECIFIC LISTED WEAPON...but also is usable and safe in MANY other weapons of the same caliber.

I've been at this game 65 years, learn something new every time I go online...know and understand things that many "newbies" and experienced reloaders DON'T have a clue about because I did things in the old days that people nowadays haven't/don't/already been tested and is incorporated...by experimentation AND mucking up.

This reloading game isn't something you can learn overnight or online, it takes TIME AND EXPEIMENTATION...slowly...my sage advice..."START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW."...learn what the beginnings of high pressure are, what to look for, learn what the various pressure signs REALLY MEAN and what the false signs are and WHAT THEY mean...

And all this hot air isn't even the first page in the book of learning...more like the first couple of short paragraphs.



AND BUY A GOODD QUALITY CHRONO...and learn what the numbers mean and where the worms are.

Luck

Thank you sir!

I started reloading for rifle ammo in 1993.

Before that - in India - I was reloading for shotguns with hand roll crimp tool and hand punch to remove primers! This was in India where no standard components were available and the only powder was granulated black powder for muzzle loaders! Primers were also ML primers! Lead shots were mixed & of unknown alloy!

I used to read gun magazines from the early 70s & one advise I got was to start with the Lyman manual and to rad the front chapters several times. That was the BEST advise I ever got about reloading. The Lyman manual has a solid history going back several decades. All the data is very easy to read & understand - including pressure data. Action type, barrel length etc. are recorded. Virtually all the critical variables are there. The new editions have both PSI & CUP pressure - a big help.

It is critical that pressure is understood well - how pressure changes with change in components. Pressure curves are exponential & hence you can get DANGEROUS pressure spikes by making minor substitutions!

quote:

Originally posted by NONAGONAGIN:
ANOTHER PLUS FOR NAKIHUNTER

AND another conundrum...WHICH RELOADING MANUAL SHOULD BE USE.

MY additional advice is...AGAIN...


READ ALL the fine print in the beginning of the book...Several books...Take what you see online with a LARGE grain of salt, there is a LOT of BS out there, well meaning or not...but also MORE good advice than bad, it's just hard to decide which until you have some "stuff" under your belt...and the nuances that you DON'T understand can take you in a bad place.


LOOK at the SPECIFIC information about the RIFLE/PISTOL that was used to develop the reloading data...

The SPEDCIFIC bullet, primer, case brand, powder type and specific brand, barrel twist and COAL...

AND follow it precisely or as close as possible until you become more knowledgeable...

AND, READ, READ, READ...ask questions, make copious notes at each reloading and shooting session...DON'T go ANAL...variation is the name of the game ESPECIALLY if you have a commercial weapon...learn what those variables are and HOW THEY APPLY. and understand you CAN'T reload exactly...many variables have changed.

MOST of the data coming out of reloading manuals for the past decade or so has been carefully developed to be safe in a multitude of MODERN weapons...this DOESN'T include military weapons coming out of WWI and II...and was developed for the SPECIFIC LISTED WEAPON...but also is usable and safe in MANY other weapons of the same caliber.

I've been at this game 65 years, learn something new every time I go online...know and understand things that many "newbies" and experienced reloaders DON'T have a clue about because I did things in the old days that people nowadays haven't/don't/already been tested and is incorporated...by experimentation AND mucking up.

This reloading game isn't something you can learn overnight or online, it takes TIME AND EXPEIMENTATION...slowly...my sage advice..."START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW."...learn what the beginnings of high pressure are, what to look for, learn what the various pressure signs REALLY MEAN and what the false signs are and WHAT THEY mean...

And all this hot air isn't even the first page in the book of learning...more like the first couple of short paragraphs.



AND BUY A GOODD QUALITY CHRONO...and learn what the numbers mean and where the worms are.

Luck

There are a myriad of problems with the internet and the masses of information available at your fingertips...plus the egos, old school, new school, pissing contests and for those that grew up in the techno-logical age, the need for instant gratification....VERY simplistically and not very well put.

Have a problem...get the answer on the 'NET... no one wants to sit down and analyze or try to figure out what the problem actually is and many don't have the requisite background knowledge to actually perform a good analysis or ask the question properly nor do the repliers have the ability to present the answer cogently...me included many times, plus glib answers from many.

Basically a sign of the times with no solution in sight nor probably ever will be...we are humans with human frailties and flaws.

One thing that is obvious to me is very few have an understanding of manufacturing tolerances and what those tolerances do to the reloading process. I can see it in the questions AND in the answers.

Look at the question of FL resizing in the reloading forum and the answers. There is a prime example of people trying to answer a simple question and getting all difficult because it ISN'T a simple question due the requirement for prior, fairly extensive knowledge of the manufacturing tolerances and what happens when they are not functionally within boundaries.

All the information is available online and actually on AR as I have addressed it a few times...but you DO HAVE TO SEARCH for it and when I addressed tolerances specifically, guess what happened...the same info is available on a few other forums I visit on occasion.

NO FLAME OR DISS to anyone in particular, intended or implied, it's just a problem with non-verbal, non-face to face communication. Humans, like ALL primates, are a VISUALLY attuned mammals, and absent looking into the eyes and facial/body language, information is lost.

Some of the problems lie in interpretation of WHAT THE QUESTION is exactly and interpretation of a poster is actually saying in answer. I don't know how many times my answer to a question has gone decidedly sideways by a responder and THAT response ended up in a dust-up.

EVERYONE lives in their own world and responds in like kind...so if I ask a question, innocently, that doesn't fit their world it can be construed as an attack of sorts when in actuality I was just wanting a specific observation I thought they could supply...instant dust-up....where the h*** did THAT come from???

Interpretation, miss-interpretation, dis-information, miss-information...

Luck

Thank you all, for the replies.

I have read 4-5 books on the topic already. Being a physicist, I find the topic quite interesting.

I can promise you all one thing, I will not use any loads of the internet. Expect for powder/bullet manufacturers online data.

After 3-4 weeks of reloading, I feel that I am gaining an expertise in one particular field; The bullet hammer. Extensive expertise with that guy.

I have lots of reloading books of all ages.

After 50 years of reloading the best advice I can give you start low and work you way up.

That is a big relief. You will know all about the exponential properties of pressure spikes!

What rifles are you reloading for? What is the action & barrel length? Are you a hunter?

What powders are you using?

PM me if you want some loads for the 6.5X55. I developed loads for 120, 125, 139 & 160 gr bullets on Sako & Winchester actions. I am happy to share them with you.

quote:

Originally posted by aresm:
Thank you all, for the replies.

I have read 4-5 books on the topic already. Being a physicist, I find the topic quite interesting.

I can promise you all one thing, I will not use any loads of the internet. Expect for powder/bullet manufacturers online data.

After 3-4 weeks of reloading, I feel that I am gaining an expertise in one particular field; The bullet hammer. Extensive expertise with that guy.

I've just started rifle shooting. I bought a Røssler Titan6 with two barrels, 6.5x55 and 7x64. I'm from Scandinavia, so load data for 6.5x55 is easy to get with Norma and Viht powders. So far I've used Norma URP 43 gr (using LEE Dipper 3.1) on 123 gr Nosler CC for target shooting. I weight every fifth load, and it is quite accurate, +/- 0.2 gr. There is more uncertainty in my shooting skills, than in the variations in powder loads.

The 7x64 I have not decided yet, but it will be loaded with Accubond 160 grains. I'm thinking Norma MRP powder for that.

I also have a Zoli drilling 12/12/7x57R used for fox hunting. 46.5 gr Norma URP with Sierra 100gr Varminter. Very well shooting bullet with a break barrel gun like this.

VV N160 and N560 will be very good powders for the 7X64.

I had a 1950s M98 Voere which shot very well with H4350. N160 is very similar in performance.

quote:

Originally posted by p dog shooter:
I have lots of reloading books of all ages.

After 50 years of reloading the best advice I can give you start low and work you way up.

I also find the chronograph to be an excellent indicator of pressure. However, you have to understand what's going on to use it as an indicator of pressure along with ejector marks, primers starting to flatten, sticky bolt lift, case head expansion, etc. Most of the time my best accuracy load is 50-100 fps under max published velocities so I rarely see any pressure signs.

the 8x57, 7x57 have always been at risk in that so many weak actions are out there both bolt and single shots in these and a few other calibers..thus the USA has been shakeing in their pants for years over these two excellent calibers as they fear frivolous law suits..

A good 98 LR or SR Mauser is as good as any action out there from a reloaders standpoint, just be sure your rifle is the correct one and you can load them up way past the book suggestions in many cases..Its a matter of working up custom loads for your gun..

Its not uncommon in any reloading book to see 2 to 3 grs different in the same rifle and the same caliber, its up to the reloader to develop the skill to deal with these obsticles and in reality we do fly by the seat of our pants a good deal.