Shot this just yesteday.

24 yr old Rem 700 in 30-06
Leupold M8 4x scope.
Customized by removing action metal and turning down barrel 22" factory barrel to .550" at muzzle.
Mag-na-ported.
Trigger @ 3 crisp lbs.
Action bedded and fully freefloated barrel.
Over all weight is 6 lb 8 oz.
I've put probably 1500 rds through it and is pretty much my dream rifle from 24 yrs ago.

Load:
-Fully prepped (not weight sorted) WW cases on 4th firing, -FL sized in Forster BR dies, shoulder set back .003".
-WLR primer
-Ramshot Hunter (58 to 61 grains in .2 grain increments)
-Nosler 180 Ballistic Tips seated to the lands (3.540" OAL)in Forster Ultra Seater



Five fouling/pressure shots (58 to 61 gr) were fired then sights were adjusted to place shots on target. Cases were mic'd just forward of extractor groove with no no case showing more than .0002" expansion. Wind was from 1-2 o'clock at about 2-3 mps, maxing at 8 mph but shots were pretty much inbetween gusts.

Ohler M33 Chronotach w/ sky screens.
Target has a 4" square center.

1. 58.0 gr = 2644 fps, 43 degrees
2. 58.2 gr = 2659 fps
3. 58.4 gr = 2673 fps
4. 58.6 gr = 2702 fps
5. 58.8 gr = 2689 fps
6. 59.0 gr = 2724 fps
7. 59.2 gr = 2720 fps
8. 59.4 gr = 2736 fps
9. 59.6 gr = 2732 fps, gust of right to left wind.
10 59.8 gr = 2745 fps
11 60.0 gr = 2742 fps
12 60.2 gr = 2739 fps
13 60.4 gr = 2742 fps
14 60.6 gr = 2770 fps, 46 degrees
15 60.8 gr = 2780 fps
16 61.0 gr = 2796 fps, fastest 180 gr vel I've seen in this gun.

You can see my 60 and 61 grain fouling shots underneath the masking tape. The spread between 60, 60.5 and 61 gr fouling shots was only 2-7/8". This kind of confirms my thinking that the sweet spot is probably number 15.

Opinion!????

Big Al

How far was this target set at? What kind of group does this gun shoot at 100 yards?

GSSP: Very interesting, I intend to do the same test shortly with a Remington Sendero, .270.
I think the groep 5-6-7 is the best: in metric, as far as I can deduct the distance of the holes, the MOA is 0.97, (distance holes in mm/0.29/273(meters)). speed @ 2710 fps. The MOA of 14-15-16 is 1.15. speed @ 2780 fps. Try both groups again with increments of 0,1 from 58,7 to 59,3 and the other from 60,5 to 61.1 and see what happens. Let us know!
Go down to 200 yards!

It looks like it.

I couldn't find the distance you shot at. If it was 100 metres, I would not be too pleased!

In order to 'read the results' of a laddertest when there is no clear sweet spot or when there are more than one, I find it helpful to copy the 'hits' on another paper in pairs of three; in your case 16-15-14, 15-14-13,
14-13-12, 13-12-11 and so on. This is an easy way to find the 'sweetest spot' in your ladder

If nr. 16 is not near your max. load, I would do another ten shot test in 0.1 increments from 60.6 upto 61.5 grains. You should get more reliable info from this second test. (when the sweat spot in this ladder is smaller, you know what your rifle can do. if there is no definite sweetspot, decide whether you accept this bullet spread or not.
I don't think there is much to gain in trying other bullets, since the Nosler BT design is known to be accurate

The distance is 305 yds.

I've seen this rifle, w/ H4895 (especially) and H4350 group 5 shots into MOA and better. My best was .337" at 100 w/ the H4895. I just wanted to see if I could find a load w/ higher velocity and lower pressure.

Big Al

Big All,

This added info is vital!
If I were you, I would be satisfied and rest my case!

I can't find my notes for Hunter powder at the moment, but either your barrel is amazingly fast or else your pressure is 65,000 - 70,000 psi with the 61 gr. load.

I've tried Hunter in a two different Remington 22" 30-06 barrels and performance was in the same ballpark as 4350 or RL19. My barrels would not push a 180 beyond 2725-2750 fps at normal pressures, as measured by a strain gage.

The data on the Ramshot website only goes up to 60 gr. and 2769 fps in a 24" barrel. That is consistent with my experience and consistent with your 60 gr. load, when adjusted for barrel length.

I did push 180s to 2800 - 2825, but pressures were 65,000 - 70,000 psi. My gun showed absolutely no so-called "pressure signs" at these levels.

Regarding your ladder, you have not shown enough data to demonstrate that the differences in POI are not merely due to random variation. If you repeat the same test at least five times and the POIs are about the same each time, then you may begin to draw some conclusions.

Hey GSSP, How quickly were you firing "between" shots?

Do you have an Adjustable Objective on that scope? If so, did you simply Dial In the position according to the Hash Marks on it, or actually adjust it by sight?

It might be your barrel started moving due to either heat "or" your Bench Position was different from shot to shot.
---

Forget all of my above post.

You need MORE SCOPE POWER! 4x won't cut it for this Test at 300yds. Way too much shooter movement that is impossible for you to see.

Just a thought, but perhaps your scope is not perfectly perpendicular with the bore??? or you are canting?
BJB

Popenmann,

Ramshot puts 60 gr as max with the Hornady 180 BTSP Interlock. In the morning I'm going to check the bearing surface length of the Nosler 180 BT against the Hornady. I'm betting the Nosler is shorter.

In addition, since I'm seating against the lands, my OAL is 3.540"; quite long. I belive this allows me to place extra propellant and reduce pressures due to the extra interior space.

I'm also a fastidious case head expansion measurer. Following Rick Jamison's article in the Hodgdon annual reloading magazine a few years back, .0006" is my self imposed limit and .0002" is the most I saw. I feel if I wanted to, I could hit 2800+ if I were greedy.

Hot Core,

I was waiting at least 3 min in groups of 5, and waiting 10-15 between those groups.

Nope on the AO; straight 4x Leupy. I really work on keeping my eye centered. Probably my bench position.

Canting? I suppose I could be! I've been shooting this gun "as is" since 1982 when I took delivery of it from a custom smith out of Janesville, CA.

Big Al

Hey GSSP, That is a fine looking rifle. And the scope is also fine for either up-close shooting or shooting at LARGE things out to say 200yds or so.

There is not a scope problem per say, just the wrong power for this project. With 4x, it will appear you are steady on the Target out at 300yds when you really aren't.

I fully support your running the Test, but you will not find the Harmonic Nodes without putting a higher power scope on the rifle.

I have a scope that I move from rifle to rifle as I develop Loads. I believe it has only been Hunting a couple of times because it has the "Thin Duplex Reticle" which is worthless during low light conditions. But it can see way out yonder during the day and it shows "ANY movement" on the Target due to Position, Breathing, Heartbeat, Caffine, whatever.

So, my recommendation is to swap the scope to one with something in the 14x-20x Power range long enough to Develop the Load. Then go back to the 4x if that is what you want to use for your hunting.

If that is not possible for you, then you might as well bring the Target in closer. You could try rerunning the Test at 200yds and see if it will begin to form Clusters.

Best of luck to you.

gssp

I agree with hotcore about the scope. For yrars I used my one really good scope to develop loads, then used it on my favorite hunting rifle.

For the precision test you are donig, at 300yds I would have hard time with anything less that 12X. With out the proper tools your whole experiment is skewed.

simdow

GPPS: I scrolled thru the old topics and found yours again. Look at
https://forums.accuratereloading.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/2511043/m/571104925
I am satisfied with these results, fiveshot groups of .6 to .75 MOA.
Jan