Gents,

I just started reloading for my .416 Rigby this morning and ran into a problem at bullet seating. Here are the specifics to the situation:

Lyman Reloading Dies
Hornady Brass - New
400gr Swift A-Frames

After running the new brass though the sizing die and ensuring proper case length, the brass went into the tumbler for 30 mins just for a quick clean. I then primed the die. The first piece of brass was charged and to bullet seating I went.

The Lyman manual says with the brass in the holder and raised to it's highest point to screw the die in until you feel the crimp shoulder touching the brass. I took this to mean when you start feeling resistance when screwing the die in. You then back off a bit to stay away from crimping. You then start screwing in the bullet seating stem until you get to proper bullet depth. For me this means when the brass neck gets close to the front end of the cannelure of the A-Frame. So I did this carefully until the stem was where I wanted it.

But when I pulled the cartridge out I noticed the shoulder looked wrong. The best way I can describe this is it looked like the neck was being pushed back "under" the main length of brass. Essentially the shoulder collapsed.

So, I started all over again but backed out the seating die a little further. However the second time I paid closer attention to the shoulder as I was setting the bullet depth. Sure enough almost immediately the shoulder started to collapse.

I then mic'd the inside diameter of the other brass that I ran through the die. I got .412" to .413" on this brass. I also mic'd the outside diameter at the base end of a couple of the bullets and got .415" on both.

So if I know what I'm talking about here that means I've got .002-.003" of neck tension which does not seem excessive to me. This is what I get on other calibers I load. So I'm inclined to not think this is a die or bullet issue, but that the brass is the problem.

Your thoughts please?

Did you chamfer the inside edge of the neck? I do this on all of my new brass and needs to be done only once in my experience.

Also,
Sounds like you have already tried this but back the die out a full turn from where you thought you began to feel resistance.

I suspect that although it felt as if you were "close" the edge of the neck was actually coming into contact with the crimping shoudler of the die so it was trying to crimp on the body of the bullet.

Nothing to lose by trying these two things before giving up on the dies or the brass.

I assume that you have put a nice inside chamfer on the brass before trying to seat a bullet?

quote:

Originally posted by CCMDoc:
Did you chamfer the inside edge of the neck? I do this on all of my new brass and needs to be done only once in my experience.

Also,
Sounds like you have already tried this but back the die out a full turn from where you thought you began to feel resistance.

I suspect that although it felt as if you were "close" the edge of the neck was actually coming into contact with the crimping shoudler of the die so it was trying to crimp on the body of the bullet.

Nothing to lose by trying these two things before giving up on the dies or the brass.

Yes, I chamfered the case mouths. And also on turning the die out, but I may give that one more try. If the die tried to crimp the brass before the neck reached the cannelure, would that then cause this problem?

This is probably not the issue as well but just to be sure, did you properly expand the neck prior to bullet seating? Sound obvious but a friend of mine was having the same issue. When I looked over his operation, he had broken the decapping pin and instead of taking the unit apart and replacing the pin, he unscrewed the decapping apparatus from a 300WBY mag and screwed it into the 416 die, not thinking about the expander being undersized.

Also, you mentioned putting the cases into the tumbler. Did you make sure to brush all the media dust out of the neck?

Like I said, probably not your issue, but you never know.

I would first re-read Lyman's instructions.
If that fails I would:
-back the seating die out 1 1/2 turns (about the thickness of a nickel)
-screw the bullet seating stem down and proceed to seat a bullet to the desired overall length.

That done, I'd then unscrew the seating stem and readjust the die to, if wanted, the desired crimp, then readjust the seating stem accordingly. I'd also measure the expander button just to be sure it is the correct one.

I had a similar issue recently with some 257Wby brass and trying to seat 100gr TTSX's. I collapsed the shoulder while seating the bullet. I went back to my sizing die and realized I had bumped the shoulder back and apparently weakened the brass. Thankfully it was only a few old pieces of brass I was experimenting with. I reset the sizing die so it didn't bump the shoulder and no more problem.
In over 40 years of handloading I have never done that before and hope I don't again. With the short sharpe shoulder on the Rigby that may be the problem--at least something to look at.

quote:

Originally posted by Todd Williams:
This is probably not the issue as well but just to be sure, did you properly expand the neck prior to bullet seating? Sound obvious but a friend of mine was having the same issue. When I looked over his operation, he had broken the decapping pin and instead of taking the unit apart and replacing the pin, he unscrewed the decapping apparatus from a 300WBY mag and screwed it into the 416 die, not thinking about the expander being undersized.

Also, you mentioned putting the cases into the tumbler. Did you make sure to brush all the media dust out of the neck?

Like I said, probably not your issue, but you never know.

This is a prime example of what's great about internet forums, successful resolution to a problem. It's also what's awful about them, the ability to make one's self look stupid.

I have never brushed the necks after cleaning. Just dumped it out and gave a quick puff of air to make sure all of the little pieces are out. Just never thought about dust being left behind. After using the neck brushes on the brass the bullets are now seating just fine.

I guess you learn something new everyday. Even though I've never seen this problem in my other calibers (all smaller), I will now do this in the future.

Glad it worked out.

I had a similar problem when loading for the Rigby. It's a shoulder design issue that makes it a weak point. I was trying to get heavy crimps on solid bullets with a standard seating die. I adjusted a bit too far. They still chambered, and it did not affect headspace, it was mostly a cosmetic flaw. I found if I seated and crimped in seperate operations, I could obtain a relatively heavy crimp without distortion.

With (older) Federal nickel brass I can use the RCBS die to crimp, without extra measures. Hornady and NORMA brass both are too soft at the neck and crumple, so I don't use bullets with them that need crimping.

FWIW I believe the high price for .416 Rigby brass and loads is due to a high rate of loss owing to the design. (ie., they have to throw away/scrap lots of what comes down the assembly line)

Some folks spring for a special crimp die along the "Lee factory crimp" line of ideas. SINCLAIR and others also construct bore guides for the Rigby.

2 cents

I also load my Rigby with Lyman dies, but have not experienced your problem. If you're going to crimp (I do) make sure you do it in two steps. Adjust you die to seat without crimping by raising the die, then back out the seating stem and lower the die to crimp. Works fine for me.

The is the most recent of various threads on crimping the 416 Rigby that I found in my search. I have just committed to a CZ 550 mag with kevlar stock. I am awaiting the reloading bits and it could take over a month - given all the security & customs redtape from the US / Brownells.

I have just bought a Lyman FL die set and will be loading Barnes TSX & Woodleigh softs. I'll probably also use the Speer 350 gr bullets for practive as they are so cheap.

I want to crimp all my loads and i want to use the Lyman seating die. I realise that & will have to do it 2 steps - after bullet seating I'll back out the seater stem. The question I have is - How many twists or parts of a twist do I need to use to get an adequate crimp? - ie. after the seating die is screwed down to meet the case in the shell holder, it stops when the case mouth hits the die.

If anyone has a 416 Rigby crimp die or a trim die for sale, please let me know.

I had exactly the same problem when loading .416 Rigby ammo with new Hornady brass. That darned shoulder is pretty fragile on those things. I only had this problem with new brass, never with brass that had been fired a time or two. And yes, I chamfered the case mouths.

I am sure I will get yelled at for my way of solving the problem, but here goes. It says right on the can that Hornady One Shot Case Lube will not harm powder or primers. So, I tried spraying the base of the 400 grain Barnes TSX and Banded Solids with the One Shot lube.
Problem solved, no more crushed shoulders. I never experienced any problems with ammo loaded like this. Again, no problem with cases that had been loaded before, only brand new brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Nakihunter:
The is the most recent of various threads on crimping the 416 Rigby that I found in my search. I have just committed to a CZ 550 mag with kevlar stock. I am awaiting the reloading bits and it could take over a month - given all the security & customs redtape from the US / Brownells.

I have just bought a Lyman FL die set and will be loading Barnes TSX & Woodleigh softs. I'll probably also use the Speer 350 gr bullets for practive as they are so cheap.

I want to crimp all my loads and i want to use the Lyman seating die. I realise that & will have to do it 2 steps - after bullet seating I'll back out the seater stem. The question I have is - How many twists or parts of a twist do I need to use to get an adequate crimp? - ie. after the seating die is screwed down to meet the case in the shell holder, it stops when the case mouth hits the die.

If anyone has a 416 Rigby crimp die or a trim die for sale, please let me know.

Nakihunter,

I just recently sold off my CZ in .416 Rigby and with it my Lyman dies. It had been awhile since I had loaded for it and obviously I don't have my instructions anymore.

But if I recall correctly, you set the the seating depth first with the die somewhat screwed out of the press. Once you have a bullet seated, you back out the stem and start bumping the die in to set the crimp. Once you've got the crimp as you want, you screw the stem back in with the loaded case up in the die. When the stem hits the bullet you stop and set the nut.

At this point the die is now properly setup to seat the die and crimp in one motion. It isn't a two part step.

Again my memory may not be serving me properly. I normally crimp with a Lee Factory Crimp die which is indeed a seperate step.

Everyone with a set of 416 Rigby dies should measure the diameter of the sized case at the shoulder. I think you will find Lyman dies size the cases smaller than almost any other brand.

As with any big bore handgun, you should buy a FOUR die set. size, neck expand, seat and crimp.

They always work and never wreck cases.

I had the same problem, that shoulder is fragile! I bought an expander die, and bell the case mouth ever so slightly. Problem solved. The worst problem was with Barnes banded solids. The edges are SHARP and won't seat for me without belling the case mouth.
I had Lee custom make a crimp die (also for my 470) and prefer it to crimping with the seating die.