I was loading some 7mm ultra mag test rounds. the load was 140gr game kings over 65- 87gr 4831sc with cci 200 large rifle primers. 3 hand fires and 22 duds later. I have looked at ever thing. Nothing stands out. Any suggestion would be greratly appericated.

Be fore I get slammed that load wqas 85-87gr of 4831sc.

You need a Magnum primer. CCI 250 mag. See usage chat. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/...ers/primer_chart.htm If you still have misfires after switching to mags, then make sure you are seating primers fully. Cold weather can slow the firing pin, clean pin channel. Firing pin should protrude about .055" different for many guns. Head space problem, are you pushing the shoulder back to much on Full lenght sizing?

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You need a Magnum primer. CCI 250 mag. See usage chat. http://www.cci-ammunition.com/...ers/primer_chart.htm If you still have misfires after switching to mags, then make sure you are seating primers fully. Cold weather can slow the firing pin, clean pin channel. Firing pin should protrude about .055" different for many guns. Head space problem, are you pushing the shoulder back to much on Full lenght sizing?

+1

I've never seen 4831, in even the largest capacity cases, fail to ignite due to the type of primer which was used. Attributing igition failure to the fact that they were "only" standard primers reveals shooter inexperience and a simplistic misunderstanding of cartridge ignition. While it might (or might not) be true that a "magnum" primer might give you better performance, this is not the source of your ignition problem.

Your ignition problem likely springs from one of three sources:

1. A bad batch of primers (very unlikely).
2. Excessive headspace (possibly created by full length sizing with a die that doesn't match the chamber well). This will can result in a very light primer strike and a hang-fire or no ignition.
3. A faulty ignition mechanism in the gun.

The last two are the most likely, with the third the more likely of the two. Just this last week I was working with a VERY high dollar rifle which had two of three cartridges fail to fire. A little examination found that the old lubricant inside the bolt had become gummy and stiff. After cleaning and properly lubing with the correct lubricant, the rifle's ignition with the same loads was 100%. This is the very first place I would look for a problem. A poorly adjusted firing pin protrusion from the bolt face can also cause igition problems. At any rate, check out the bolt.

In order to test whether excessively sized brass is the problem, simply load some of the same brass with only the primer (no powder or bullet) and see if the primer ignites. You can do this in your garage without returning to the range. Use a couple of different primers to be assured that you don't have a bad lot of primers.

If you get no/poor/erratic ignition (with more than one lot of primers), try decapping once fired (in your gun's chamber) but unsized brass, priming it, then attempting to fire the primers. If unsized brass fires consistently when resized brass does not, then you've identified excessive headspace as your problem. Simply back your resizing die off of the shellholder and this problem will go away.

Let us know the results.

Hate to ask, but you,re not seating the primers too deep, are you?

I have used CCI 200 for the past 30+ years and never had a failure. I'm riding with StoneCreek on this.

Yep Stonecreek hit most of my list but didn't mention poorly seated primers. If they aren't seated they travel when struck and can cause issues.
I'd suspect headspace if these aren't neck sized, and then I'd be pulling the bolt apart. Nate

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I have used CCI 200 for the past 30+ years and never had a failure

Interesting. I've never had a large magnum case full of 4831 fail to fire but then I've always used Mag primers. 06 cases and cases like the 7mag I use 200s. I had tried both in the 7mag size case and I felt the 200s gave a touch better accuracy. Since they are the same cost and I've always had both saw no reason not to use them in the larger cases. But I'm a belt and suspender guy.

I buy primers by the 1000 usually. I had used most of a batch of CCI 200s, with no apparant issues, until I started using them in loads for two rifles. DUDS, mostly. I figured at first it had to be headspace, somehow, so I worked with that issue. On the first rifle, I even switched bolts, checked headspace, and still got duds. It wasn't until the second rifle showed problems that I began to suspect the primers. Both rifles had been working and firing fine with factory loads.

Anyway, I switched to Fed primers, and the two troublesome rifles started firing every time. It's still a bit of a mystery, because I'm still using the primers, until they are gone, and they still work in the other rifles I'm using them in, namely two Rugers in 308.

Funny thing is that a friend asked me for some primers, since he ran out, and I gave him 100 out of the bateh, and didn't say anything about having trouble. Next thing I knew, he was researching Brownells, etc., looking for firing pin spring replacment for his Tikka. I quickly figured out that he was getting duds with his reloads, and was blaming the rifle. I told him about the problem, and gave him a box of Fed primers. Same thing - problem solved - he hasn't had a dud since.

I never had this particular problem before. It's a mystery because I really didn't figure out what the problem was, but the solution appears to be switching to fed primers, especially in that initial troublesome rifle. It's not headspace, or brass sizing, or the firing pin spring, or firing pin protrusion. I checked all that, and even switched the complete bolt assembly. Nothing worked till I switched to another brand of primers, which happened to be Federal, because that's what I had. I did use abut 20 Remington primers given by a friend, and they worked too.

KB

30 years ago, there was NO H4831SC or 7mm ultra mag. H4831 & H4831SC are NOT the same powders. When the granules are cut, made smaller as in the SC, the burning rate changes to faster. More coating may be applied to the SC to bring it inline with the standard H4831. This keeps the burn rate the same for both. But makes the SC harder to light up. Magnum primers help in this area.

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Originally posted by Ole Miss Guy:
I have used CCI 200 for the past 30+ years and never had a failure. I'm riding with StoneCreek on this.

mdvjrp93 is using SC. Different powder. The hang fires are a clue. When he pulls the bullet & looks at the powder, then maybe will will know what happened. Read More

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I've never seen 4831, in even the largest capacity cases, fail to ignite due to the type of primer which was used.

Thinking about it I remember some dust up about a run of really hard primer cups from CCI a while back.

I don't use CCI's hardly ever if I can get Win or Rem 9 1/2's. In fact I have bricks of primers now enough that I may not ever get a chance to try anything else. Nate

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Originally posted by 243winxb:
mdvjrp93 is using SC. Different powder. The hang fires are a clue. When he pulls the bullet & looks at the powder, then maybe will will know what happened.

Or when he looks at one of the primers which didn't fire and finds just the tiniest of dimples where a .04" deep firing pin indentation should be.

In my experience there is a big difference in hang-fire and dud. Hang-fire is delay. Dud isn't a bang at all.

The dimple in the primer was shallow - those that failed to fire.

KB

Sounds like you may not be getting a strong enough pin strike.

Aside to 243Win, according to Hodgdon, the SC and standard are exactly the same as far as burn rate goes. What you have posted about different coatings certainly sounds feasible however.

Stonecreek I am neather simple or inexperenceed. The primers fired to weakly to ignite the load. When the rounds in question were disassembled the powder had clumped and turned yellow. I talked to hogden they recommended mag primers. CCI was all but useless.... I'm going to load some with 250 mag and see what happens. The rifle fires factory loads perfectly. The 3 rounds that did fire were hand fires. This also indicates weak or faulty primers. Before you slam people that ask for help you should think. Because in this instants you only made a butt of yourself

Kabluewy it sound like we have a very similar problem. The primers work in 243, 6mm, 308 and 270. But in 7mm rum there is a problem. I do appericate your input. 243winxb I beleave that you hit the nail on the head and appericate the direction to the cci chart thier rep did not mention it.

Let's see, 22 failures to fire and 3 "hand" fires. (at the danger of being called a butt, what the hell is a hand fire??)
Anyway, back on task, you've had 25 failures to function properly with primers that worked well in a series of other rifles. This should tell you that the problem is with your rifle not the primers.
Some primers are more tender than others and if you are experiencing a light pin fall, switching to them may, by all appearances, solve your problem. But, in fact, you haven't addressed the real problem. It is still lurking there waiting for a most embarassing moment in which to appear.
I think Stonecreek offered up a pretty valid assessment of your problem. If you didn't like the manner in which it was served up, perhaps you shouldn't ask questions of a bunch of guys that mostly don't give a rat's ass if they hurt you feelings.

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Originally posted by wasbeeman:
Let's see, 22 failures to fire and 3 "hand" fires. (at the danger of being called a butt, what the hell is a hand fire??)
Anyway, back on task, you've had 25 failures to function properly with primers that worked well in a series of other rifles. This should tell you that the problem is with your rifle not the primers.
Some primers are more tender than others and if you are experiencing a light pin fall, switching to them may, by all appearances, solve your problem. But, in fact, you haven't addressed the real problem. It is still lurking there waiting for a most embarassing moment in which to appear.
I think Stonecreek offered up a pretty valid assessment of your problem. If you didn't like the manner in which it was served up, perhaps you shouldn't ask questions of a bunch of guys that mostly don't give a rat's ass if they hurt you feelings.

You and Stonecreek hit it on the head here. May take awhile but eventually the light will come on for the OP and he will be back with his hat in hand...

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Originally posted by mdvjrp93:
The primers fired to weakly to ignite the load. When the rounds in question were disassembled the powder had clumped and turned yellow.

That causes me some concern. I'm not sure what to make of that info.

However, in my case, there was no partial ignition. The powder in the disassembled cartridges was the same as it was when it went in, as far as I could tell. But the primer had not fired at all.

What prompted me to switch primers was when I neck sized some of the cases that had fired, and seated a primer, then tried firing just the primer. Some of the CCI primers wouldn't fire, but all the Fed primers fired.

KB

My rule is if there is greater than 60 grains of powder then I use a magnum primer. This is based on the loads shown in just about every loading manual I own from Accurate to Vihtavuori.

I have reloading manuals close to where I am writing this so I thought I might check out some book 7mm RUM loads. Since you are using GameKings I started with Sierra's manual: Sierra #5 does not have the 7mm RUM listed but the 300 RUM with similar powder capacity does have a magnum primer. Barnes edition #4 has magnum primers listed for the 7mm RUM, as does Nosler edition #4, Hornady #8, Speer #14, and lastly Hodgdon's Annual for 2011.

I am sure this was a very annoying way to learn more about magnum primer utility in large powder capacity cases.

MDV, I would seat some of those primers in an empty case and fire them in my rifle. Then I would do the same with another comparable primer, or the same primer from a differnet lot if I had them, and see how they compared for volume of sound and flash.

If they sound like duds, they are probably duds and I would call CCI and complain until I received a reasonable response.

Keep in mind CCI primers are the hardest, of if you have a weak spring it will usually show up with CCI's first.

Antelope The primers fire fine with no load also the primers in the duds fired but to weak to ignite the powder. I believe the first two post ghot it right. The primers would not be firing with light strikes. The cases was necked sized so the chance of sholder setback is small. Have not load any new rounds with mag primers. As soon as I do I will post the results. Webfeet you are right about the annoying part but not so much the rifle going klick. As the people that THINK they know it all. Forturantly I don,t wear hats and the only light that came on was to try and ignore ignorancy

ROFLMAO!!! "ignorancy"??? Is that anything like a hand fire?

Yep can,t spell or type

At the risk of actually being helpful.... I have seen the same thing in my 375 Ruger. Intermittent hangfires using CCI 200 primers that went away completely when I switched to CCI 250 mag primers. In some cases, the std primers just will not ignite that much powder reliably.

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7mm ultra mag

Ah. I was thinking 7 mag. Yea, that one word changes things. CCI 250, or Win Mag primers would be my first choices with a stick powder in an Ultra Mag. Fed 215's with a ball powder.

Thanks captain and antelope for your comments. I think I'll try to do some loading soon. I'll let you know what happens. Capatain keep on taking those risk

I finnally found someone fromm CCI that knew something. He was pretty straight foward about thier primers. He said that even the 250 mags was not hot enough for the rum case vol. That they recommend the federal 215. So I spend I spend it's back to the gun store agin. If you call CCI ask to speak to Alston.

Thanks for the help everyone the mag primers fix the problem.

Here is a good article on CCI primers, from a CCI employee. Mysteries And Misconceptions Of The All-Important Primer

Thanks 243 it was interesting.

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Thanks 243 it was interesting

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