after a bad experience with them the first time I used them on game I don't. The rifle is a 7-08 and the baltips that it likes is the 150's. My question is are the Hornady SST's a likely candidate to work good in this rifle? I havn't been able to get near the groups from other bullets that I do with the baltips but have yet to find the SST's on the shelfs in my area so haven't tried them.

Data from several bullet tests and actual game shot has shown the sst to perform identically to the ballitic tip.Hornady advertises them as a tougher bullet but this doesn't appear to be the case.

Any bullet can fail. If you had only 1 failure and gave up on them, that might be premature. You didn't say what game they failed on. But for whitetails I've have used 140's in a 7-08, 130's in a .270, 150's & 165's in a '06 and 165's and 180's in a 300 win mag. I havn't had one fail. Noslers BT's work well in every firearm I've shot them out of. Haven't tried SST's yet.

I have used the Ballistic Tips for at 5 years and never had one fail. I had one bad shot I made and the BT saved my butt or loosing the deer. I would stick with them. I use them in my 7-30 Waters Super 14" Contender, .223 Contender 14" and just lately my 309JDJ. I loaded the 309 w/ 150grn BT and 51grns of IMR4350 for my deer hunt this weekend. I took a 130lb doe in NW Oklahoma at 230 yards with it. Broke a rib on entry, both lungs and rib on exit with about a 1" exit. Perfect. This barrel is shooting an average of 2350fps with this bullet. My 7-30 Waters uses the 120grn BT's and I took a 105lb 8 pnt with it Thanksgiving day at 50 yards. I have taken big and small game the BT's and they make my guns shoot so good. I would give them another try if you don't know why they failed.

Mike

I wouldn't think a 7mm-08 could drive a 150gr ballistic tips fast enough to fail.

Heavy varmint-Would you let us in on the details of your ballistic tip failure.

I have killed 11 deeer to date with them ( .308 in 150 grain ) and of 7 that I recovered the core seperated from the jacket 5 times. All the deer were one shot kills.

Ever wonder why there is so much debate about the Ballistic Tip for big game use? Why not for the Partition or some garden variety hunting bullets like the Hornady Interlock or the Core-Lokt. Isn't it like discrimination or something? Shouldn't we say something contentious about the Swift A-Frame or Scirrocco once in a while? Just doesn't seem fair. I'll bet Speer and Sierra are preparing a class action suit as I type...

Stubblejumper, saw your request this morning but had to leave for work so I will try to answer now.

GSF1200, The reason I tried the 150's instead of the 140's is because of the horror stories I had heard about the balistic tips and thought like you, surely the 150's would hold up fine to 7-08 velocities, better safe than sorry so I would go a little heavier than 140.

After trying several different bullets for this particular rifle with none giving me exacty what I was after in the accuracy department I decided to try the 150 grain balistic tips, wich also was one of the two recommended bullets for this rifle by the forum member I bought it from. They shot well (most 3 shot groups less than .7 with 39 grains of IMR 4895) so I decided to use this as my whitetail load

The failure came when I took a shot at a deer approximately 45 to 50 yards, quartering away. The shot was to go in just at the liver and exit the opposite shoulder, not a perfect broadside shot but not to much to ask of a 7-08 on deer. At the shot I new something had went wrong because enough hair flew from the side where I had aimed it was as if I had just shot a chicken. The deer ran approximately 80 yards and stopped, after a few seconds it started walking, not showing any signs of expiring quickly although it may have lost its hind legs for a moment, not sure but it did stop again long enough for me to get the second shot to its head, A shot I have never took before but just wanted to get this deer on the ground as quickly as possible. When I examined the deer I found that the first bullet had blew up on a rib and while leaving an entrance hole large enough to drop a softball through the only internal damage was fragments in the liver and stomach. At the angle in wich I shot these fragments had to go in almost a 90 degree angle to even get the stomach where they did. Bottom line is the bullet hit bone and fragmented. The fragements that found there way in only penetrated about 6 or 7 inches at the most.

Some swear by them leading me to believe that they must work most of the time but after that type of falure the first time out I can not put enough confidece in them to give them another try. I am back to load developement AGAIN.

My boy shot 2 deer with 140gr Nosler BT's out of my 280 Rem. Never again!! Yea it killed them but I had to completely through away BOTH front shoulders on both deer. Total over-kill destruction!!! At the same time I had loaded some 200gr Nosler Partitions for my 300 Win mag and at the same distances from the same tree We (my other boy and I) shot 3 deer with this combo with the same end results(DEAD in their tracks). Little meat loss!!!! Now I know some say you shoot too kill but I also shoot to EAT!!!!!! I now shoot Partitions in my rifles too deer hunt with and BT's too varmit hunt with.

[ 01-01-2003, 05:03: Message edited by: zman ]

I use lung shots and the 140gr ballistic tip launched at 3500fps from my 7mmstw's exits deer and drops them almost instantly while the only lost meat is a rib or two on each side.I do not use shoulder shots and meat loss is not a problem.

Heavy Varmint,

I started to post my cull records but on reflection have sent you a PM instead.

[ 12-31-2002, 15:43: Message edited by: 1894 ]

Jeff we are shooting whitetails, not sledgehammers. I've never had one not pass thru a whitetail. Choose your bullet for the game your after the one your gun shoots well.

Hi all,
50% success 50% Failure
Not glowing testimony!!
no room on my reloading bench for bt's

Griff

It is in the small minority of cases that one of my ballistic tips does not exit.With over 30 head of game taken with these bullets I have had exit wounds in over 20 instances.I have also had 180 gr ballistic tips exit three elk and two moose when used in my 300ultramag.I recovered the bullet in the fourth elk after it passed through the rib cage and offside shoulder and stopped against the offside hide.

Stubble,
Interesting that you recovered a 180 grain bullet from an elf, from a 300 RUM... not what I would expect from a bullet... what was the retained weight, single largest piece?

BTW, in MY mind, "just an elk" that stopped a 180 without hitting a major bone, is a failure.

jeffe

jeffeosso-I have actually never shot an elf and am not sure it would be legal.As for the bullet recovered from the elk,If you reread my post you will see that it did pass through the offside shoulder after passing through the rib cage.The shoulder on a large bull elk is a major bone as far as I am concerned.If recovering a 180-gr bullet from an elk is a failure I guess that I have seen several partitions fail.I have recovered 200gr partitions fired from my 8mm mag from an elk as well as 210gr partitions from my 338x8mmrem mag on elk as well.I have also seen many other very respected bullets recovered from"just an elk".I personally don't consider them bullet failures.

Stubble,
So, what did the bullet weigh? 85 grains? 65? just found the jacket? btw, anything above 60-65% is unbelievable, for a BT, in field use.

the barnes and paritions i've seen recovered (barnes at 90+%) shot LONG ways through elk(elves) and nilgai. and the "normal" weight for parts? like 70-75%... IF the front is lost.

REAL bullet picx
http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005751

Face it, unless it's smallish animals, with medium/small bore rifles, BTs are just grenades. Even a core lock is a better bullet to not blow up.

that's the facts, and wishing it wont change anything

jeffe

[ 01-01-2003, 08:49: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

jeffeosso-I just weighed the bullet and it came out at 78gr.If ballistic tips are such grenades why can I launch them at 3375fps out of my ultramag and have five out of six exit elk and moose.One shot each and all four elk and one moose dropped where they stood while the largest moose took a few steps before dropping.The two moose weighed in at approx 1000lbs and 1200lbs while the elk ranged from 600lbs to 900lbs.These are certainly not smallish animals and the velocity is quite high.These are the facts as you like to call them not just heresay from people who have no first hand experience with ballistic tips.

Stubble Jumper,
If you are happy with less than 45% weight (43.33%) then more power to you. I am not, and the bullet failed. in my FIELD EXPERIENCE with them, they fail drasticly. yep, the critter dies.. and the bullet was at it's limit.

Dudes, that's all there is to it. There aint no wiggle room, not denying it, 43% weight retention is a failure. That a shank, a jacket, or does it look like a bullet?

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=005751

Did you have a chance to look at these pics? i bet the nosler is 75% and that's missing 1/3 of the length the bullet.

Sorry, man, I wont be pointing a BT at game EVER again. Might with the new bullets, that look like they are designed for WEIGHT RETENTION and to mitigate bullet failure.

Shoot em all you like, it's your call. But don't try pawn them off as better than what they are. they ARE extremely accurate, they dont seem to be finicky (like barnes) and they are cheap... only twice the price of the el cheapo hornady.

jeffe

[ 01-01-2003, 10:06: Message edited by: jeffeosso ]

JEFFEOSSO-I tell you what.You stick with your retained weights and theories and I will stick with accuracy and quick clean kills from my ballistic tips.Out of curiosity just how many ballistic tips have" you personally "used on game?What were the calibers and bullet weights and on what game?

My experience with Ballistic Tips:

300Whisper 10" TC 125BT 2100fps-6 deer (does only)
7mmX444Imp 14" TC 140BT 2400fps-11 deer
308X444Imp 14" TC 150BT 2550fps-20+ deer
338-06JDJ 15" TC/Encore 200BT 2600 fps-8 deer
-Recoverd one bullet jacket hanging in hide 120yard shot 2" exit hole from 300Whisper.
-All 7mm shots where pass throughs from 40yards to 100yards 1 1/2" exit holes on no bone hits 2 to 2 1/2" on bone hits.
-one recovered bullet fragments and jacket from 308X444Imp on a quarting away shot in spine hit over shoulder at 60 yards all others where pass throughs with exit holes ranging from 2" to 4".
-The 338BT's seem to be much tuffer than the other BT's I've shot, no recovered bullets from this one all pass throughs, one was from a quarting away shot,70yards, shot entered behind rib cage and exited through right front shoulder,1 1/2" hole, the heart looked like jello.
-How can I call any of these shots failures since all where one shot kills.
-I get the same performance in my 16" TC 7-30 waters with 130 sierra ssp, they shoot so good in this barrel I've never tried any other bullet, my son took his first deer with this barrel in carbine form when he was 12 and hunted with it for 10 years. He is 24 now and loves the 308X444imp, two deer this season. Seems I got off the subject here a bit but I have passed on my passion for TC single shots to him.
Albert

Hi all,
Everyone to their own!
I personally don't like them!!
It is blatantly obvious that if you shoot-em fast they disintegrate as will most other bullets.
In reloading pages in this forum there is instances where they break up in FLIGHT.
Now to call these bullets "premium", they are not!!! Premium price yes!!
If they work for you, then who are we to disagree!

You can only make judgement when you've heard both sides.

Griff

Me an stubblejumper want to know the same thing jeffeosso. How many times have you actually used them on game? Me and my father have shot dozen of whitetails and mule deer with .30 BT's ranging from 125 gr. (my starter load in my .308, about 2600 fps, my wife loves it) up to the 165 gr. in the .30-06. Have yet to ever have one "fail" as you describe it, but then I've never recovered one either cause I've never had anything than clean pass throughs. And I'm not one of those guys that will BS you and say "I've only ever shot a deer in the ribs and never missed" we've shot deer that were wounded by other hunters and dropped them with a shot in the butt, pulled a shot on a windy day and gutshot them. The MAJORITY of our deer are shot in the chest cavity, but the BT has simply never failed us. Not to say it won't, but I have so much faith in it right now that one fluke won't discourage me forever. If I want a bullet that WILL NOT fail, I'll pick the partition, but that's a whole nother discussion
Yardbird

If you feel that a few hogs ,2deer a javelina and a turkey make you an expert on ballistic tips so be it.I have personally taken over 30 deer(large bodied canadian deer),four elk,two moose,three pronghorn and a bighorn with ballistic tips.No animal has made 50 yards after being hit with most dropping on the spot.To me that is not bullet failure.To me my results indicate an accurate effective bullet so I will continue to use them until proven otherwise.I couldn't care less about what a recovered bullet weighs or looks like as long as the kills continue to be clean and quick.

I have taken 10 whitetails in 3 years with Nosler ballistic tip bullets.

• 140gr 7mm @ 2850fps from a 7mm-08
• 180gr 8mm @ 2960fps from an 8mm-06 A.I.

All were 1 shot kills. The only one that might have been mistaken for bullet failure was a buck I shot from a ladder stand @ 45yds in some brush with a 140gr 7mm Balistic Tip from my 7mm-08. The bullet hit about 9" above point of aim with a long wide entry wound in the loin. I could actualy lay my thumb into the hole in the hide. The bullet passed through the loin, missing the spine, went through the liver and paunch, but did not exit. The blood trailing was sporadic and very difficult to follow. The deer went 75yds. It was dark when we found the buck, and I do not consider digging through a very messy gut pile as one of my favorite things. The bullet was not recovered.
Was this bullet failure?

Absolutely not!

Closer examination several days later @ the spot where the deer had been standing reveiled a 1/4" diameter twig that had been hit about 5yds in front of where the deer had been standing! The evidence seems to suggest that the bullet was already partialy expanded when it hit the deer. It certainly was deflected, perhaps it was tumbling.

I myself do not adhere to the "brush busting" bullet theory choosing to try to "shoot between em" intead of "through them".

All things considered I think that the bullet did an admirable job under less than ideal conditions.

I personally won't use Ballistic tips for hunting big game. I know of too many horror stories (two this year). There are excellent bullets out there that are specifically designed for taking game, so why gamble?
I love ballistic tips, and shoot them all year, but not for big game hunting.

Just one more thought to ponder?How many horror stories about bullet failures are in fact stories?I have heard many times how various bullets(including ballistic tips, partitions,failsafes barnes x bullets ,etc) failed and game was not recovered as a result.The shooter usually swears he hit the animal right where he was aiming and yet the animal ran away.The sad truth is that without the carcass being recovered, one never knows for sure where the bullet actually struck.In many cases the bullet is blamed when the actual cause was bad shot placement.

1894,
we just seem to be raking over old ground here!
the 2 ballistic tips that i used were: 100gn & 85gn.
2 moving fallow @ close distance through the shoulder no exit! jacket embedded in shoulder and shrapnel effect on opposite rib cage.

once again the 85gn was a designated hunting bullet,"combined technology silver tip hunting".
Fox @ 180yds approx no exit!
so used them on foxes instead of deer.

Use what you want, matchking/barnes/bt's/sst etc
If you put on the box, premium bullets then thats what they should be! and at the price that bt's t are they should heat seeking and laser guided.

just my opinion of course, and in no way can any of these comments be construed as a negative attitude towards bt's!!!!

Yours
Griff
(a non bt shooter)

It's funny how most failures of the BT bullet are at close range. The Nosler manual even tells you not to use them at close range, at least mine does. Their design is for long range work and aerodynamics which increase BC. If you shove that plastic backwards at 2900fps, of course it's going to blow up, so don't shoot a shoulder. If your shots are 50-100yds, use a softpoint.

just great!!
just remind the deer to adhere to the nosler manual in future!!
and wander off to a reasonable range!!
or perhaps I should unload and load a premium bullet up the spout! of course without the deer hearing you.
Or perhaps we should educate the deer to not come too close, because we might be using bt's.
some of us don't have the nosler manual,and if thats what it says in the manual why doesn't it say it on the box?
never heard of any other manufacturer saying don't use at close range.
o'h and by the way what is close range!!!

Griff

Boy, these bullet discussions are interesting! I loaded ammunition commercially for about 12 years here in NE Washington state, on a moderate scale. Big game here is Whitetail, some mule deer, black bear and elk. Used mostly Speer bullets (I never used Nosler BT's on game or loaded them for game), some Nosler partitions, and some Hornady. The only complaints I ever got (that I remember) was on the partitions (small wound channels). My customers tended to rate bullet performance by the effect on the game, not by weighing the remaining weight. For myself, I expect to ruin any quarter shot with a modern big game rifle, so I shoot'em in the ribs.

I defined it, for the purpose of the discussion, as 50-100yds.

I can try to scan the pages in for you if you like, and send them to you, that way you don't have to buy it.

[ 01-03-2003, 06:36: Message edited by: JustC ]