Gentlemen,
I don't understand. Nosler, Hornady, Hogden, and Federal all appear to put the ballistics for the 416 Rem Mag and the 416 Rigby essentially neck and neck. Then when I check out the Barnes manual it is different -- the "regular loads" between the two are close; however, in the "maximum" column the Rigby picks up substantial velocity advantage over the Rem Mag (I assume largely due to exercising its raw case capacity).

But some nagging questions remain:
1. Is the "Rigby Advantage" because Barnes is a little more gutsy and a little less risk averse and is publishing the high end loading info when the other companies don't? or....

2. Is it because of a difference in the Barnes bullets themselves, i.e. solid copper alloy versus jacketed lead core (any difference in density)?

3. I notice the loading data on this site offers velocities similar to Barnes however it does not state the bullet manufacturer or type (unless it remains "as above" until changed further below." Are these velocities available using "non-Barnes bullets? I'm hoping so.

4. Assuming I can handle the additional recoil and the game (not African) is out beyond 200 yards -- how "flaky" an exercise is it loading the Rigby up to 2600 with 400 grain bullets (of any type)?

5. Now looking at this site's data for the 416 Rem Mag, I see loads for going over 2600 -- so which cartridge is better if one is wanting to explore the "upper limits?"
-----------------

I'm not necessarily eager to exceed the Rigby recipe of 400 grs at 2400 fps BUT before buying I'd at least like to know my future options.

Never Go Undergunned,
EKM

The Rigby case is bigger. The Remington cartridge has a higher pressure specification.

For a given powder charge and bullet, the Rigby will shoot at lower pressure. With light or soft bullets, either cartridge may be loaded to its maximum pressure, and that gives you about 2400 fps with a typical 400 grain bullet.

Barnes bullets are not typical. They are harder, and they resist being squished into the rifling more. The powder charge on the Remington must be reduced to keep the pressure at an acceptable level. Pressure does not go up as fast in the larger Rigby case, so you can comfortably shoot a heavier bullet or a harder Barnes bullet at higher velocity than with the Remington case, without going over the maximum pressure.

A similar situation obtains with the 308 and 30-06. The two cartridges are indistinguishable up to about 165 grain bullets. With 180 grain and heavier bullets, the roomier 06 case's pressure doesn't rise as fast as the smaller 308 case. The 308 keeps up with the 06 at lower bullet weights because of a higher pressure spec.

H. C.

ELKampMaster, what exactly do you want to do? Are you are shopping for a .416 bore, or is this just a matter of curiousity?

To answer your first question, Lymans #47 also lists much faster max load velocities with the Rigby. The Rigby is the parent case of the 378 Weather magnum, which beget the 460 Weatherby magnum, which in turn beget the 416 Weatherby magnum. So the 416 Weatherby magnum is REALLY a belted, double radius shouldered, 416 Rigby. The case capacity difference between the two cartridges is only about 3 grains or so. In reality one can easily duplicate the ballistics of the 416 Weatherby magnum with the 416 Rigby. When doing this however the pressure that the load develops is the SAME as the Weatherby ~ 63,500psi. The 416 Remington, loaded to 2400 fps with a 400 gr pill operates at ~ 64,000 psi.

So if one loads the Rigby and the Remington to the same pressure ~ 63,500 psi with 400 gr bullets the muzzle velocities will be:
416 Rigby ~ 2700 fps
416 Remington ~ 2400 fps

I have shot several different brands of 400 gr bullets @ 2650 - 2710 fps in my 416 Rigby. These bullets were manufactured by Speer, Hornady, Woodleigh, and Barnes. The Barnes were the worse performers, from an accuracy stand point, and fouled the barrel badly! This was a WELL broken in barrel by the time the Barnes bullets were introduced to it, I might add.

One IMPORTANT thing to remember however, is that the "soft point" bullet in the .416 bore diameter are designed around an impact velocity of ~ 2200 fps or less! At velocities above this the "soft points" tend to become small fragmentary devices i.e. extreme bullet failures occur. The solids, and in particular the Speer tungsten solids, do not suffer this limitation.

So if you are shopping and the hunting is long range the Rigby may be the ticket, as you can get over 3000 fps muzzle velocities with the 300 and 2950+ with 325 gr bullets. If Africa is the destination I would still pick the Rigby since the pressures will be lower in the high heat. The Remington however does have the advantages of lower weight and typically one additional round in the magazine.

Axel

Axel,

1. I am trying to reconcile conflicting data, which appears to have multiple causal factors, so I don't get "ambushed" for not "reading the footnotes," e.g. not all rifles shoot Barnes bullets well.
2. I am very much shopping for a 416.
3. I am beyond curious.

Intended Uses:
** Long Range On Elk (Not likely, but an option I want to keep open)
** DGR - Brownies In Alaska
** DGR - Africa

I am not into custom rifles. If Winchester sold Model 70's in 416 Rigby this would already be over. Not fond of Rugers. CZ's are okay and a good value BUT then the work begins and down the semi-custom path you go. I'm more a turn-key kind of guy.

Just trying to give the 416 Rem Mag and the Rigby each a fair shake -- neither wins on all counts -- fleshing out the last elements of the tradeoffs.

EKM

[ 05-01-2003, 10:16: Message edited by: ELKampMaster ]

EKM

I have reloaded for and owned the 416 Remington (Rem 700)and 416 Wby (Mark V). The Remington will go to 2450 f/s with 400 grains and the 416 Wby will go over 2700 f/s. I have not reloaded for the Rigby but I think about 2600 plus would be its number.

On another thread it was mentioned that Norma 416 Rigby brass is thinner and weaker in the case head than the 416 Wby brass. I have seen that said before but find it hard to digest. But still, it maybe worth keeping in mind.

I can tell you that a 416 Wby with full loads absolutley needs a muzzle brake if long range shoting is to be done.

If I was buying a 416 to use only for what they are designed for, then I would get a Model 70 in 416 Remington.

I am not sure what customising is required on a CZ 416 Rigby to equal a Model 70 in 416 Remington. In fact many would suggest that it is the other way around.

If you have any interests in a bit of speed then the 416 Rigby and 416 Weatherby are the only answer. The big plus with the Rigby and Weatherby is that do 416 Remington ballistics in cruise mode. They are better calibres if you like to play about than is the 416 Remington.

Mike

ELKampMaster, the gentleman I purchased by used Ruger 416 Rigby from did a great deal of max load shooting with it. I do not believe he will post on this subject, which is a shame as I know he has a GREAT deal of experience on the matter. He told me that he originally purchased the Rigby for long range elk and moose shooting after he lost a bull with some kinda 300 magnum. If you want I can try and contact him and see if he will post on the subject, just let me know?

I have fired some of these 2700 fps, 400 grain bullet loads and concur with Mike375. The recoil is punishing! After firing off all these loads, 31 of them came with the rifle, I have decided to load it to factory levels. My rifle, by the way, doesn't have a muzzle brake. I think the previous owner was a pain killer junky or something, as I have seen him fire off 50 to 60 of these max velocity rounds at the bench, and accurately I might add!

Axel

Jim,

Norma makes Wby cases, which is why I said I find it hard to accept. Here is a post by Robgunbuiler:

I would not push .416 Rigby brass to the pressures the .416 WBY operates at. The WBY brass is stronger. I have actually used .416 WBY brass and turned the belt off and then resized it in a .416 Rigby sizing die. I have been able to duplicate .416 WBY ballistics in a .416 Rigby using this brass with no problems.
With that said, Why bother. The .416 Rigby is the epitome of a African DGR in shootability and usefull power . The higher velocity of the .416 WBY does not result in more penetration just more felt recoil. 400 grs at 2400fps is perfection itself!-Rob

This post is on a thread on BigBore forum about rechambering a CZ 416 Rigby to 416 Wby. I would have copieed the link but I used up "copy" on the above post from the thread

Mike

I have seen sectioned Rigby and Weatherby cases. These were Norma and Federal, the latter applicable only to the Rigby. Considering only the Norma manufactured 416 Rigby and 416 Weatherby magnum cases that I saw sectioned, the thickness from the inside of the case to the extractor claw groove was IDENTICAL. I would have to check my notes, but as I recall the dimension was ~ 2.9 mm.

The Federal case was actually a little bit thicker, but I find it difficult to believe it would make in difference in the REAL world. By a little bit I mean ~ 0.1 mm.

This leads me to believe that in reality there is no difference between the Norma manufactured Weatherby and Rigby cases, on the inside anyway. Obviously the Weatherby has a belt.

Axel

For a play about gun I would always prefer the 416 Wby but for reasons that don't apply to many shooters and probably don't apply in America.

The first reason is related to very reduced loads. Rimless cases will increase headspace for each shot, at least that is certainly the case with 308 and 30/06. Rigby might be different with its very sharp shoulder.

The second reason is brass availability. In Australia there is always some brass for either 30/378, 338/378, 378 or 460 so one does not need to stockpile brass for a 416 Wby or for any other 378 based Wby calibre.

Mike

I bought my Ruger in 416 Rigby, had it rechambered to 416wby before firing a round through it. Turned out I wish I hadn't. The load data just wasn't at my fingertips like it was for the Wby and I wanted it to push 2650-2700 for flatter trajectory like the 338wm, only with more punch.

The rifle is suppurbly accurate and I suggest you find a Ruger and really look at the Magnum in 416 Rigby, they are a beautifull rifle, and built strong as hell too. They are much nicer than standard Ruger MK11's for sure. Mine shoots 400 grain XLC's at 2700 fps with RL22 under .7 moa consistantly and no brake needed. It would be nicer to shoot with one but I've never "needed" one. The 400gr A-Frames go just over 1 moa no matter what load I use but, they're super consistant too. I've killed three moose with mine in the last three years, one at 30 feet, one at 225 yds and the other at 640 yds. One black bear at 20 feet too. I regularly practice with a good rest out to 800 yards with this rifle all year. All dropped like like they were hit with the Thors hammer.

The Rigby will come within 50 fps of the Wby, the Rem will not approach this level. The trajectory is the big advantage. The cases are virtually identical, except for the belt. Seat your bullets way out to 3.75" oal and capacity is real close. Barnes #2 manual has some loads for the Rigby for new modern strength recievers that live happily in the 60-70 psi range, your brass will likely show pressure signs at near 70k psi so a grain or two less will bring pressure down enough to keep the brass alive for quite a while, especially if you anneal the necks every three or four firings. Go for the gusto and get the Rigby, you'll simply love it. I had the trigger lightened to 3 lbs and a 3.5-10x40 Leupold with Burris Posi-Line rings installed, that's it. She's a sweet shooter.

Most all load data for the Rigby is tested at a max of 40k psi and the Remington and Wby are at 63k psi... there's your difference in velocity. A bunch of velocity is picked up when you go from 50 up to 65k psi let alone from 40-65k psi.

[ 05-02-2003, 01:41: Message edited by: Brent Moffitt ]

EKM,
Ditto Brent. My Ruger magnum 416 Rigby is the only Ruger amongnst many Mod 70s. I am happy with it and will keep it unlike all other MKIIs I've owned in the past. Don't pass this one up just cause it's a Ruger.