I am wondering what powder will provide the fastest velocity for a 50 grain bullet in a 223. I have 24" varmint rifle. I have looked at just about all the reloading manuals I could find, my lyman says xmr2015 will get you to almost 3500fps, nosler says benchmark will also get you within a wisker of 3500fps. however none of the other manuals confirm this data. nosler shows the xmr load around 3200fps and lyman shows the benchmark load about the same, these are max listed loads. and no other manual confirms lyman or moslers data. I want to get close to 3500fps with a 50grn bullet what powder would be my best choice??

In the testing I did VARGET provided the best velocity.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
In the testing I did VARGET provided the best velocity.

What was the charge and how much speed did you get??

It was some time ago and I was screwing around.....I really don't remember but it was better than the BL-C(2) I was using.

here's the data from Hodgdon
and it shows nearly 3,400 with low pressure.

I didn't want to use Varget as I wanted to stay with ball powders in the Dillon 650 I use.
Sorry I can't give you more info....but Varget is what I'd use if I loaded on a single stage press......don't be afraid to compress it a bit.

I do a lot of .223 loading in a bolt gun. Varget has never netted me much more than about 3200 fps. I shot a lot of surplus BL-C2 most of my loads run very close to 3400 and the accuracy is better than Varget with 50 Gr. bullets. Tac will perform pretty close to the BL-C2 for a lot more money.

Having said that Varget is about as good as it gets in a couple of other calibers that I shoot one being light bullets in .243.

H335 is another powder that will get you some pretty good velocity. Along with VV N130, N133, and N135 all should come in close to 3500fps.

But WC846 (BL-C2 equivalent) shoots about as well as anything I've tried in the .223 for a lot less money. The only problem it's getting hard to find.

Now if I were going to be shooting say 65 or 69 Gr. bullets in the .223 Varget would be my first choice.

In the Sierra #5 manual there are 4 different powders that show 3500 fps with a 50 gr. bullet from a 24" barreled 223 bolt rifle.
N130
N133
N135
H335

VithaVouri N133 is the best kept secret when it comes to the 223 and 50 gr. bullets. Straight out of the Sierra manual at 25.8 gr. of N133 in Win. brass behind a Sierra 50 gr. BlitzKing using a Rem. 7 1/2M primer, my 24" 1 in 9 twist Douglas XX, number 3 taper staniless barrel yeilds 3508 avg fps as measured over my Ohler 35P. Accuracy runs in the .5's to .6's with that load for 5 shots. At 24.9 gr. with the same brass bullet and primer it will shoot in the .3's consistently at 3376 avg. fps. Since I am anal about accuracy that is the load I use. That same load shoots extremely well in numerous 223 that my friends have, and yeilds nearly indentical velocities.

I have tried H335 and it doesn't even come close to N133 in my rifle.

PaPa 260

RL 7 will definitely get you to 3500 fps, and more... also so will Benchmark... In my Rem VLS in 223, I have chronographed those at 3600 pretty consistently... enough that I can't use Hornady's SPSX bullets with that load....

cheers
seafire

the data is so conflicting with this combo, my lyman book shows the RL7 and benchmark among the slower loads, where as nosler shows benchmark as the speed king. I am suprised at the wide range of difference among the data

If you check out the pressure in the Lyman Manual also, it is low for what they recommend for RL 7...

work it up some....

too many people don't take a look at the pressures posted with some load data...

if a powder is listed at only 47,000 CUPs when the cartridge is SAAMI spec'd at 50,000 or higher, I don't have a problem working up some.. but every reloader must make this choice themselves...

If you are shooting prairie dogs or sage rats, you might want to consider some of the 40 grain bullets if you are looking for speed....

I have clocked them at 3800 fps with Benchmark and RL 7....in the 223.. with Lake City Brass along with Rem and Win brass....I usually use Winchester primers or CCI as those are what are available locally the easiest to get...

if you want to try a load at 3250 fps, with a lot less recoil in a 223, and takes a lot longer to heat up the barrel....

14.5 grains of Blue Dot with a 45 grain bullet and 14 grains of Blue Dot with a 50 grain bullet...or 15 grains of blue dot with a 40 grain bullet....

as always work up...

but they are accurate as hell, the recoil is reduced enough you can see your hits in the scope like a 17 Rem....plus it will increase the barrel life of your rifle dramatically....plus you get 500 plus rounds out of a pound of powder!



cheers
seafire

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
...if a powder is listed at only 47,000 CUPs when the cartridge is SAAMI spec'd at 50,000 or higher, ...

Generally speaking, if there is room in the Case for more Powder and the folks in the Ballistic labs STOP before the Average Pressure reaches the SAAMI MAX, there is a specific reason for it.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what it "might" be?

Try Ramshot X-Terminator. 3400+ with 50 gr TNT and close to 3900 with 40 gr Nosler BT out of my 26" Ruger.

The max Hodgdon book load of 27.5 gr H4895 does produce 3500 with 50 gr V-Max out of the 22 inch barrel of my Ruger 77 sporter weight . I was surprised at the speed I was getting , but it is a bit tedious to stuff a compressed load of stick powder into the little case . Yet the same rifle is completly unimpressive(for speed) with the 40 grainers and several powders tried .

quote:

Originally posted by sdgunslinger:
The max Hodgdon book load of 27.5 gr H4895 does produce 3500 with 50 gr V-Max out of the 22 inch barrel of my Ruger 77 sporter weight . I was surprised at the speed I was getting , but it is a bit tedious to stuff a compressed load of stick powder into the little case . Yet the same rifle is completly unimpressive(for speed) with the 40 grainers and several powders tried .

I've use a lot of H4895 and my experience tells me that load is more like 3300 fps and some change out of a 24" barrel?

I agree with Seafire. In fact Seafire was the one that helped me to find some higher velocity out of a 24" tube in the .223 with the 40 grainers. I ended up with 27.0 grains of RL 7 in Lake City Brass with the Nosler BT 40 grains for 3925 FPS. It is an accurate load and one shot death on badgers so far. Try it you'll like it. JMHO

quote:

Originally posted by Jay Johnson:


I've use a lot of H4895 and my experience tells me that load is more like 3300 fps and some change out of a 24" barrel?

As I said , I was surprised myself , but that load definately does chrono 3500 in my Ruger. And the Hodgdon data does show 3468 fps for a max load of H4895 .

N-133 From 19.8 grains to 26.2 grains
Remington 7-1/2 Primer

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
...if a powder is listed at only 47,000 CUPs when the cartridge is SAAMI spec'd at 50,000 or higher, ...

Generally speaking, if there is room in the Case for more Powder and the folks in the Ballistic labs STOP before the Average Pressure reaches the SAAMI MAX, there is a specific reason for it.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what it "might" be?

Well Hot Core, that is why we reload instead of buying factory ammo......

As I maintain, reload books are a guide, not an end all....because I have had loads that are popping primers before I reach the supposedly SAAMI max....

Consistent example, is the 260 Rem with 95 grain V Max and the Max load of Benchmark listed....MAX In all three of my 260s with this combo is 2.5 grains BELOW what is listed as Max....

I'm not going to make a debate about it, as I know you know your stuff... and I highly respect your opinions in here....but I also find out a lot by the good old "working up" method.. that both support and debunck " traditional" reloading axioms....

We all should work up... I am just sharing what my experiences have reflected... nothing more, nothing less....we can all take or leave what we see and hear, in this forum....but we all should have the common sense to work up any and all loads in each rifle we own.... only that truly states what is safe for each individual person and rifle.....

But I am preaching to the choir here.... so pardon my ramble...

cheers
seafire

Hey Seafire, I wasn't taking a shot at you or your post. I agree completely with your comments to always "work up" the Load and that the Manuals "are a guide, not an end all".
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Just curious if anyone had an idea "why" SAAMI would choose to STOP adding Powder before the Average MAX Pressure for a particular cartridge was reached.

Apparently not, but here is a clue. If anyone has ever seen me post about "why" I don't like working with the "RL-15, 19, and 21" Powders, it is the same reason.

For a couple more clues, the same can be said for IMR-7828 in 7mmRemMags and IMR-4320 in a 300Sav.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by seafire/B17G:
...if a powder is listed at only 47,000 CUPs when the cartridge is SAAMI spec'd at 50,000 or higher, ...

Generally speaking, if there is room in the Case for more Powder and the folks in the Ballistic labs STOP before the Average Pressure reaches the SAAMI MAX, there is a specific reason for it.

Anyone care to venture a guess as to what it "might" be?

hotcore educate us. I have several loads I use that the book shows at the highest velocity but lower pressure, I asked about a 748 load in a 308 a week or so ago, anyways this load in particular produces the most velocity and only lists at 43,200cup other loads are listed up to 52,400cup. Why didn't they keep adding more powder?? BTW This 748 combo produces spectacular velocity for a 150grn bullet out of the 308

On edit: this load does show as a compressed load, so maybe that is why they stopped adding powder???

Hey CC, Just to clarify, you are correct that I'm not talking about Compressed Loads. Talking about situations where there is still room in the Case for more of a specific Powder, but the Test Lab stopped adding Powder before the Average SAAMI MAX Pressure was reached.

I had some discussions with one of our regular members "asdf" a couple of months ago about this exact thing.

Generally speaking, when you see that situation, it is because the Test Lab providing the information has experienced Erratic Pressure Spikes in one or more barrels, or with one or more combinations of Primers and Bullets with that specific Powder - above the listed amount.

So, they either back off to the point where the Pressure Spikes remain inside the Average SAAMI MAX, or simply do not list the Powder for that application.
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As in Seafire's example above, the Powder amount he uses might just work fine with his barrel, the cartridge components and the Lots of Powder he has onhand. And he might never have a problem. Or the next time he opens a new Lot of Powder, changes a component or goes to a different rifle, it "might" appear as Erratic Pressure Indicators.

I know he typically redevelops a Load when he goes to new Lots, so it would normally be caught by him due to his experience base.

When the Erratic Pressure occurrs - you might or might not see the indications of it with a chronograph. You will see it with a normally worthless non-calibrated HSGS "if" you are looking for it. And you absolutely will see it if you are checking CHE/PRE.

When we think back over the years, a lot of Powders have been removed from the consumer market. One of my favorites was H450 and I still have a good bit onhand. But, there are Cartridges it would normally be considered a good match for, where it became Erratic as you got the Pressure up near MAX. So, it is no longer available to us.
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I'm at a loss to explain the situation you mentioned about the WW-748:

quote:

I asked about a 748 load in a 308 a week or so ago, anyways this load in particular produces the most velocity and only lists at 43,200cup other loads are listed up to 52,400cup. Why didn't they keep adding more powder??

The reason I'm not able to answer is because the Hodgdon #26 lists a 308Win 150gr bullet MAX Load that shows 50,100cup. And multiple other Manuals list the same (or close to the same) amount of Powder that Hodgdon does.

WW-748 was designed specifically for the 7.62NATO and 308Win cartridges. So, I really have no idea why any Load Manual would STOP at 43,200cup.