I have been trying to size some new Bertram .45 base cases.
They are the base case for .45-120 shells.
I tried a number of lubricants, starting out with the old RCBS stuff, rubbed onto each case by hand, but it wasn't woroking too well. So I tried some other lubes. DW40 then "Break Free" a gun oil. This stuff is a two part mix that settles after a few hours standing still, so you have to shake it up before using.

This stuff is by far the splippriest lube I have ever tried.

Even then, I was only able to size no more than half the case, less on some. Two I crushed so then I gave up and tried shooting the others, hoping that they would be easiers to size once they had been formed properly.

Nope. So now I've got fired brass, which BTW shows signs of an out of round chamber that I can't de-prime, let alone size down to the bulge in the base.

Any ideas?

If you have a out of round chamber then your in deep trouble depending on how far out it is....

That is something I need to look into better. It could be grossy undersize brass.

Does anyone have any ideas as to how I can get these cases to size?

Special lubes? warm or heat them up?

EXPRESS:
Expensive brass, huh!
Yup, I've been there & done it with my .45 - 3 1/4. My solution to the problem was to full length size a case in gradual steps. I'd try backing the die out until it just begins to size. Then, screw it down about 1/2 turn & run the case back into the die. Pull the case out of the die and turn the die down another 1/2 turn or so. Continue the process until the case has been fully sized. After the first full length sizing, I've only partially neck sized. Never had to FL size after. I doubt you've got a bad chamber, it seems as if this brass is always slightly oversize. At least that's my experience.
Best of luck with the big .45, I think they're a real hoot. Bear in Fairbanks

have you tried Hornady's Unique Case lube? it is kind of a paste and you have to wipe it off however I have never got a stuck case using it. I tried some Hornady's One Shot on some nickel plated 45-70 Federal's and tha doesn't work very good. The Unique case lube works like a champ

EXPRESS

Just currious, is this a double or single shot rifle?

Since you are located in Italy, I suggest yo contact Dieter Horneber. His cases are not cheap(I guess the Bertram are not that cheap) but they are also of a very good quality. I never heard any complaints about them.

http://www.huelsen-horneber.de/

Cheers
/ JOHAN

Along the lines of what Johan mentioned, there are two different cartridges that are .45 caliber and 3-1/4" long, the British/European .450 3-1/4" BPE/Nitro Express and the American .45-120 Winchester. The cases are not the same: the .450 3-1/4" has a significantly larger base and rim diameter than the .45-120. I have seen both dies and brass mis-marked...

I didn't know that Steve thanks. Joe (Express), also, try some Imperial Sizing Wax, works very well. - Dan

The rifle is an 1866 Sharps replica.



Thanks for the link Johan, I will try calling them on monday and see if I can get my money back for these Bertram cases.



As for sizing in stages, I tried that to begin with.



10 minutes ago I tried it again, this time being sure that the dies was as far up as I could have it and not have it wobble. Well I tore a thread out of the top of the press.



I'm hoping I can get a refund for the unsized cases and I'll give the shop my fired ones so he can try and size them himself.



I don't think it's a lube issue, once the dies comes down about 2/3 the way down the case, you can really see a sharp shoulder forming, I think this brass is very oversized in that section and possibily undersized close to the rim where it bloats out.



I'll keep you posted.

Express,

What is the base diameter of your Bertram brass? If it is 45 Basic (unsized 45-120 Sharps) it will have a base diameter NO GREATER than 0.506"! If the base diameter is greater than 0.506" it is either OUT OF SPEC and you should return it for a FULL REFUND or you have British 450 NE 3.25" brass (base diameter of the British 450 NE is 0.545")

I have used 45-120 Bertram brass before, it "sqeaked" a bit along the last 1/3 of case but it sized OK. Extraction from the die was a bit strenuous as well. I used RCBS case lube (one in a spray bottle don't recall the name) and I have used the Hornady one shot (again aerosol can I think that was the name). The Hornady stuff actually worked better but it is waxy and I needed to advance the ram of the press slowly.

Good luck!

ASS_CLOWN

here are some pics of the bases of the shells. At the moment I don't have the camera here so I can show the rest of the case clearly, but one can see how far down I managed to size and the step where the die stops sizing.

Express,

Are you sure those have been resized? They look like fired cases to me since there is such a dramatic increase in diameter just forward of the case head. Regardless, they appear to be 45 Basic, since the case head is much smaller than the body of a sized or fired case.

Bertram brass is VERY thick, this causes a great deal of pressure to be exerted on the die. Long story short, it takes A LOT of force to size Bertram cases! Back in my manufacturing days, I used to extrude steel. In the steel extrusion process the steel parts are lubed with soap, believe it or not! You may want to try that! It will require frequent die cleaning, but it will provide HIGH PRESSURE lubrication, something most case lubes WILL NOT do (at least no at the level you need here). The soap you use must be DRY on the case. We "melted" the soap in the steel extrusion process and dipped the steel forgings into and then let them dry.

By the way, for the same reason that Bertram is a &itch to resize it can be a $itch to extract if you use high pressure loads! Something to consider, maybe.

Again I wish you the very best of luck.

ASS_CLOWN

These cases have not been resized.

The pics show how much the case bloats to give an idea of what I have to overcome in order to get it sized.



I took these pics to show a friend and get his advice as to whether there is something wrong with the chamber.



It is no longer really a case(no pun intended) of what lube or technique to use for these cases. They cannot humanly be forced through those dies.



I got down in slow steps, then rap the handle back up. Clean off any excess lube or apply a a little more depending on how the case is coming along then start again.



It's fairly easy to get halfway down, after that it bloody hard for a short bit, after that, if you try any further, the case collapses.



I will see if I can get any more and see about a refund on the brass.

ASS_CLOWN that base diameter sound wrong to me.

The .45-70, '90. '110 & '120 should all have .608 diamter bases, shouldn't they?

http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45120.jpg

EXPRESS,

The 0.608" diameter is the rim (at least that is what us Americans call it ) The base is the part of the case directly forward of the rim, and it should NOT exceed 0.506" on the 45-70, -90, -100, -110, -120.

Do you have micrometers or a dial caliper? I am interested in knowing what the diameter of the case is at that bulge. If you could determine where the case has gotten the largest in diameter and post that diameter, I would appreciate it. My experience with these repro Sharps is that they tend to have, how shall I put this, generous chamber dimensions (both in depth and diameter).

ASS_CLOWN

Right, should have noticed that one myself. Will do, and I already did measure the bulge, but I can't remember it offhand now.

The Imperial Sizing wax is supposed to be the best lube for sizing cases. If you can't get that, you might want to try the white lithium wheel bearing grease for your car. It's made for metal to metal contact at high pressures. I would make sure that only a very thin film of either of these lubricants is on the cases so you don't run into some kind of problem with the lube building up.