Thank you, Jiri.

The 8x75 was introduced around 1910. It is a necked-down version of the 9.3x74.

The 8x75R is just a rimmed version of the 8x75.

The S on the end simply means that it uses the .323 diameter bullet instaed of the .318 diameter bullet.

It is in the same class as the 300 H&H.

Factory ammo was/is available from RWS.

You cannot fire the S version in the J gun, but you can fire the J version is an S gun.

For 180 grain bullets around 71 graisn of RL-22 is a nice load, and for 200 grain bullets try around 68 grains of RL-22.

Start low and work up.

Cases can be made from 9.3x74R, perhaps a little short, and recommendation is to use new brass. There are also these rumours about a "basic" case for such rounds from RWS without headstamp.

The reason for this cartridge is because the 9.3x74R has a rather arched tracectory, and on smaller game ( 30 to 50 kg pigs ) the bullets are rather hard ( and slow ) and if You hit no bone will go through like solids.

Because of case taper the 8x75S is not a "modern" design, so there is a little receiver stress.

Cartridges are also made by MEN or perhaps Romey, but any way it is an expensive ( or: exclusive :-) ) caliber.

IMHO it would be a better round in a single shot or Over/under rifle/shotgun than in a double. I believe You may get the 8x68S in the Blaser 95, too ...

greetings from just south of the border Hermann

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The 8x75R is just a rimmed version of the 8x75.

You cannot fire the S version in the J gun, but you can fire the J version is an S gun.

Hi ricciardelli,

maybe I'm wrong, but it seems that you mix up the 8x57 with the 8x75 - somehow...

There is NO unrimmed version of the 8x75 existing - also no 8x75 "J".

These points match the 8x57.

Cheerio

Kwagga

After I read your post I had to dig a copy of "Cartridges Of The World" out of my junk pile, just to make sure my memory isn't failing in my old age.

I refer you to page 342 of the 7th edition. It supports the information I posted completely...

And as an after thought, the "J" designaion is correct for the 8x75...it refers to the smaller bullet whereas the "S" designation refers to the larger.

[This message has been edited by ricciardelli (edited 11-19-2001).]

Fritz

But at least it is possible: the military always used the S ( .323 ) bore. They changed to another bullet diameter and spitzer type because of accuracy reasons, but they needed 12 years to do that ( 1988 to ~ 1900 ).

The I bore ( .318 ) was created by gunsmiths, who wanted more accuracy with standard bullets.

Good shooting and buy that 8x75RS!

Hermann

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I hope you don't mind some correction: my memory says that the original 1888 issue 8x57 military cartridge had a ca. 200 or 220 grain .318 ("J") bullet. Later the ca. 150 grain .323 "S" bullet was introduced, and it was claimed that this could be shot through .318 bores. However this applies to an M88 or M98 action, and would certainly be bad practice in combination guns.

I believe that for hunting rifles the .318 bore was actually more popular, into the 1930s. My ca. 1942 RWS Handbook lists more .318 loads than .323 loads, for any given rimmed cartridge.
And there was one specific bullet, the soft D-Mantel (Doppelmantel, double jacket), for use in both .318 and .323 bores.

The popular hunting cartridges (8x57, 8x60, 8x64/65 and 8x75) were all available in rimless and rimmed (R) versions, and also in .318 and .323 (S) bores. So with any of these calibers one has to be very careful.
The 8x68S (introduced in the late 30s / early 40s) is the only cartridge that came exclusively in .323 S bore.
Some long obsolete cartridges (like 8x58R, 8x57R/360 and 8x72R) were available only in .318 bore.

Best regards,
Martin

you're right, I'm wrong - I've found the cartridge listed in the quickload program...

Sorry and best regards

kwagga

;-)

The Mod 98 was the end of an evolution, taking the 88, deleting most faults, and then progressing through the 93, 94, 96 ...

The bore for .318 bullets was a gunsmith�s affair. These people knew the problem, but instead of trying to convince the two big ammo companies, DWM and RWS, they had tighter barrels made.

You are right, for civilian uses before WW 2 the .318 seems to be more popular. BTW did You notice that only Americans always ignore the "S" designation? Any European posting, and any ammo You might find in Europe will be clearly marked. Proof marks on guns will be very specific. In contrast there is a tendency around this boards to stick an "S" to cartridges where it don�t belongs: 6.5x68"S", 10.75x68"S". The second cartridge even doesn�t use the same head size! From this then comes the rumours about this cartridges all being designed by Schuler ...

Have fun! Hermann

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quote:

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Originally posted by aHunter:
To convert Mod 88`s or early Mod 98`s to S type bullet with .323 dia its necessary to change the throat dimensions, the bore is not touched.

---

Dear Hermann,

I am not going to argue about the barrel measures of the old M88 Commision Rifle, but you cannot convert a 8mmJ/.318 into a 8mmS/.323 by just reboring the throat. You have to rebore and rerifle the entire bore. The reason is quite obvious: you cannot shoot a .323 bullet through a 318 bore. It�s like shooting .280 Rem. cartridges in a .270 Winch. (If they ever do chamber...) I haven�t tried it myself, and I am not going to either.

As I have 8x60J/.318 of my own, I have spoken with some better gunsmiths concerning this, and they all give the same answer: Rebore or rebarrel that gun, and NEVER use S-cartridges in it.

Fritz

I am not an expert on 8 mm history, and also have not too much literature for reference.
But the new edition of "Cartridges of the World" mentions a change of bore diameter to .323 bore for all military 8x57 rifles being completed by 1905. So I still believe that the original bore size was different. I'll try to do some reading over the weekend.

And yes, I also read that civilian gunsmiths did a lot of experimentation with different bore diameters, throat designs etc. And bore diameters and desinations were normalized or standardized only by 1941/42. Funny thing that the Germans (normally seen as "logical" and "well organized") tolerated such a mess.

By the way, I am currently planning for yet another rifle, a 9.3x62, built on a M98 system. And I'm still discussing about the CZ .375 H&H.

Best regards,

Martin

Tests from Ackley? showed, that even a 8 mm bullet may be shot down the bore, if the throat of a .30-06 was widened enough, so the case neck would release the bullet normally. The bullet was consequently squeezed down the bore.

I am with anybody else�s opinion that a civilian I bore ( .318 ) needs to be completely changed - rebored - to .323 for shooting "S" type bullets. But for the military bore, which always was wider, an opening of the throat is enough.

Good shooting! Hermann

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you are right! I found an article in "Kugel und Schrot" from ca. 1933 that gives a detailed account of the various 8 mm bore and bullet diameters, both military and civilian. I'll see to post a translation of this later.

Martin

It makes me want to leave 'em alone. I like the simple life.

Don

some more data on the 8x75 RS:

from 1940 RWS Handbook:
12.1 g H-Mantel, v0 857 m/s
11.5 g D-Mantel, v0 876 m/s
14.7 g Teilmantel, v0 783 m/s
Barrel length 65 cm, pressure 3300 atm. (like e.g. 7x65 R).
Most of the time, velocities given in old German tables are on the optimistic side. Note that the rimless 8x75 is not listed, seemed to be obsolete by then.

1998 Frankonia catalog:
12.7 g Norma Vulkan bullet, v0 831 m/s (ammo sold under Frankonia label). Pressure 3300 bar.
Krieghoff, Merkel and Blaser offer rifles in 8x75 RS.

There are some more cartridges based on the 9.3x74 R:
- the 7x75 R vom Hofe Super Express
- a wildcat .338-74 R Keith, which shall have the same ballistics than the .338 Win.Mag
- a wildcat 7.62x74 R Meacham, developped in 1999 (found in Cartridges of the World, new edition).

Regards,
Martin

As I said: Europeans never forget about "S" or not ...

Once we get unprecise in caliber designations we are in trouble anyway.

Good shooting! H

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I very much agree with you: bullet weight is preferrable to velocity.
Actually the 8x75 RS is already pretty fast, it is said to be developped for Africa, for long shots. For ranges to 100 or 150 meters, an 8x57 IRS should do fine.
But still, the 8x75 RS is an interesting cartridge, and I certainly also would like to have a rifle in 8x75 RS. I would not worry about the "1910 design". It may be true that short, fat cartridges have better intrinsic accuracy, but you will notice this only in benchrest rifles, not in a hunting rifles. Slim and tapered cartridges are better suited for Kipplauf and combination rifles.
But handloading will be a necessity!

Keith probably designed the .338-74 R with Alaska and Africa in his mind. At that time (say in the 70s?) you also could not buy premium 8 mm bullets. So .338 was maybe a logical choice. Today that is different, I think you even get Nosler Partitions in .323?

Regards,
Martin

Martin I agree with You: because of the availability of heavy and /or Premium bullets in .338 in the US, Keith decided for him for the .338x74R.

But now that we have Nosler Partition ( 200, 220? ), Woodleigh, GS, Swift, Barnes, up to 250 grs, IMO there�s hardly any niche between 9.3x74R and 8x75RS.

Good shooting! Hermann

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I would like to have tradition break open rifle or rifle/shotgun with open sights and spend all day tracking animal than take "sniper rifle", go to nearest hill and shot it

I consider 300 m max distance for chamois, for a red stag perhaps 330. This is for shooting above the tree border, I like to stalk nearer, and for me this is hunting. I find this discussions about how far the shot was not fair to the game. There�s much too less game to wound some samples just for the heck of it.

But I do believe in scopes. I have a 1.25-4 Swarovski ( Meopta has a similar 3000 model, similar in field of view, don�t know about Meopta in the evening ). I shoot well with iron sights, but I�m much quicker with this scope, even at 15 m!

I would load that 20 ga barrel with 3.5 mm shot for fox or hare, and only take buckshot if going after a wounded boar.

Beware: a s/s double is much more nice to handle than a Drilling, and especially so a Doppelb�chsdrilling! These are real heavyweights!

Apart from a double ( s/s, purely for traditions sake ) my favourite in combo guns is the shotgun over rifle combo. I own 16/65 over 7x57R. A 12/76 ( 20/76? ) over 8x75R would be terrific. Add a 9.3x74R double with exchange barrels in 20/76 to my Christmas list ( all next ten years included ).

For shooting over 200 m there�s only the bolt ...

For driven boar hunt I will use a CZ 550 Stutzen 9.3x62 this year.

Good shooting! Hermann

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About handling : you may be true, this drillings could be realy heavy for stalking. But two rifle shots could be finer than one. I know one hunter, that shooted 4 ! running wild boars at "one time" with CZ-550 in .30-06 with meopta scope. He is realy fast. I am not, so I need more barrels

I wish you to get all guns mentioned in your Christmas list.

Jiri

PS: what is "a" in "aHunter", it is Alpine ?

a "Doppelbuechsdrilling" two rifle barrels and a shotgun barrel - I have a story for you:
my grandfather got a Doppelbuechsdrilling in the late 1920s, early 1930s, made in Czechoslovakia, I remember the name "Lovena". Would you know anything about this gunmaker or company? Caliber is 8x60 R (.318 cal.) and 16/65. My grandfather was very fond of it, hunted wild boar in the Carpathian mountains, and even carried it in Russia on his duties in World War II (he was a forester, and had to secure wood supplies in partisan-infested country, the Caucasus and the Crimean mountains).

My grandfather told the rifle was very accurate, and he shot his best boar with it, at 250 meters (with a scope). He was a practical man and a good shot but never really interested in ballistics. He certainly fired test shots then and now but I doubt he ever bothered to shoot extensive groups on the target range, to see how the barrels really held together.

Now my brother has this rifle, and with many handloading trials he never got a load where the two rifle barrels would shoot together. Finally it took him 2 trips to a gunsmith in Ferlach to have the barrels newly regulated.
Even now, my brother says the rifle is a "mimosa", very finicky, there seem to be many factors influencing barrel regulation.

Still, this is a great rifle for driven hunts, with open sights. But then, I would not choose 8x75 RS, too fast, high velocity is not needed. And I would speculate that high velocity cartridges could increase the problems with barrel regulation.

Regards,
Martin