If you want to know where the capability of an 8X57 truly lies there is a very simple approach. Just chronograph some millsurp ammo. Over 100 years of working at it worldwide cant be wrong. They didnt piddle around with compensating for weak actions and "s" bores when making ammunition for the purpose of fighting a war, nor did they want loads that would kill the shooter. They did what theyve always done, made the best they had to offer.



Mine shot 196 grain loads @ 2550 fs and 150 grainers @ about 2900 fs. These are loads for the same cartridge from two different countries and they jibe with one another AND with "some" published data. To me that is a good Max load yardstick and I apply it respectivley. Just my .02 c.

WesternHunter, the way you've stated it, your reasoning is probably about as sound as I've heard. It makes sense. Still, there's nothing wrong with trying to wring as much as you can out of a given cartridge. No doubt a lot of handloaders are (safely) surpassing the military ball ammo the government used in the 30.06 M1 Garands.

WildcatJunker: whatever. I'm not sure how many loadings I've gotten so far from the cases, but I have used the same 30 or so Remington cases over and over while working up the load. My best guess is the cases have been loaded about 10 or so times each, from 50 grains of 4320 up to 56. And the load is better than MOA, at 100 and 200 yards, with a Leupold 3x9 VXII scope mounted. Not iron sights.

8mmFan

Wstrnhuntr,
That is good reasoning, I wonder why that has not occurred to those who write load books.
The 2900 fps 150 gr load of 1905 is equaled with less than 10% of the published loads.

I am not loading for a million different guns, just one, and I feel good improving 75 fps over the 99 year old standard.
That bolt is not going to jam when I am hunting, even with mud from the trenches.

Westernhunter, asdf came up with the idea of using a chronograph for calibrating the pressure device already.



I strongly advise not do go this lane as it is a dangerous one.



With milsurp and factory ammunition, muzzle velocity mostly is the product of an unknown powder's combustion.

Using a chronograph, the shooter might get the impression to have detected the secrets of the powder just by applying a sophisticated technical procedure.



He has not, as the burn characteristics of powders are too different from each other: while a slow powder has a flat pressure curve, a fast powder has a (dangerous) steep one.



To illustrate this:

You mentioned the 8x57 with 1 150 grs bullet. For demonstration, I ran QL with Vihtavouori powder in a 28" barrel, 7 mm seating depth:



46.0 grs N160: 2900 fps, 19.863 psi,

44.8 grs N140: 2908 fps, 30.983 psi,

and now, watch out:

41.5 grs N110: 2905 fps, 90.435 psi !



A chronometer does not tell you much about the max pressure in the barrel.



With the help of load books you'll not use N110, sure, but the data retrieved from there do not reflect what YOUR rifle yields: measuring muzzle velocity may still show an acceptable pressure in the load books, but your rifle may be a bad performer (pressurewise), and the max pressure is already above safe limits.

Luckily,we are warned by sticky bolt and other basic signs as mentioned in former posts...

Rojelio, running shots at pigs weighing in from 80-100 kilos. These buggers run fast, and if you can get a shot away, you do it. They're horrible feral animals that create havoc with crops, dams and lambs. I use a 270 with 130g Sierra's (or Speer) can't remember which, and I'll take a crack at one even if it isn't the 'perfect presentation' shot.. I guess the point of my post was that even though I am, by most standards, a bloody good shot, in the real world, when you've been running through the scrub after a running animal and need to take an offhand shot, that MOA accuracy becomes irrelevant, although it DOES improve your confidence.

I've hunted with so many people who claim MOA accuracy from their rifle off the bench, but have no idea of anatomy when it comes to taking the shot, or fall to pieces when they've been working hard to get the game. Best thing I've ever seen was a guy who pronounced his prowess took him hunting, took a shot offhand, when he was 1 foot away from a perfectly sized fence post that he could have used as a rest. After I suggested the use of a rest, next shot, he held the barrel against a tree (didn't want to scratch the stock) missed, then spent the afternoon resighting his rifle to allow for metal to tree contact!!

btw, I've never had to use more than 2 bullets to put a fallow deer or goat on the ground, so it ain't my stalking skills that are lacking!

Hey rugeruser, 80-100 kilos doesn't sound like a very big pig. How does that compare in lbs. The biggest pig I have killed here in south Texas was aproaching 400 lbs. I shot him with a Mk11 Ruger in the head. Of course he had a pit bull on each ear and several black mouth curs worrying him. I'd love to hunt in your country, but, It's just too dang far and I don't think you could drive there so It's out for me. Have a good day, Roger.

1 kilo = 2.2 lbs.

wildcat junkie,

Quote:

---

8x57 ..24" barrel..200gr Nosler Partition.. * 50.1gr IMR 4895 2713fps @ 60000psi

---

I just posted somewhre else:
"8x57 .. 29" barrel ... 200 gr Match King... 47 gr IMR4895 2630 fps"

and I got comments like:

" Clark, that's real nice, but remind me to never shoot any of you're reloads! Nevermind, I think I can remember!"

"Your reloading practices are just plain unsafe. Post all you want as this is a free country but do us all a favor and don't post your recipes."


I AM glad this is a free country and we can develop loads, post them, and call each other "unsafe".

OooohhhhKayyyyy...

Sorry I haven't answered the last day or so as I've been interviewing/researching for a new job that will (hopefully)support my hunting/reloading/gunbuying habits

Had to dig out my load log to get these particulars:

FIRST, READ NO FURTHER BEFORE READING THIS: THE INTERNET IS NO PLACE TO GATHER SPECIFIC RELOADING INFORMATION. THE FOLLOWING LOADS GREATLY EXCEED SAFE LOADS, AND WILL PROBABLY KILL YOU IF YOU TRY TO USE THEM. IF THEY DON'T KILL YOU, YOU STILL STAND A GOOD CHANCE OF HAVING YOUR HANDS BLOWN OFF OR OF LOSING YOUR EYESIGHT. A PIECE OF STEEL FROM YOUR EXPLODED RIFLE ACTION MAY EASILY PIERCE YOUR FRONTAL BRAIN LOBE, RENDERING YOU A VEGETABLE, UNCONTROLLABLY PISSING AND CRAPPING ON YOURSELF FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE. That is not said as a joke. DO NOT DUPLICATE THESE LOADS IN YOUR RIFLE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. I WORKED UP THOSE LOADS NOT KNOWING WHAT SAFE PRESSURES WERE AND WILL NOT REPEAT THE PROCESS.

I can't think of anything to add to that disclaimer, so...

Rifle: Yugo M48A
Bbl length: 23.5 inches
Nosler 180g Ballistic Tip Bullet
Cartridge OAL: 3.137 inches (measured w/ somewhat accurate gauge)
R-P Case, full-length re-sized every load
CCI Large Rifle Primer
ALL LOADS UTILIZING LEE FACTORY CRIMP

10May03
50.3 grains IMR 4320
FPS 2658, 2653, 2659, 2661, 2647 avg. fps 2655.6
Group 1.25"

17May03
51.5g IMR 4320
FPS 2772, 2762, 2740, 2764, 2765 avg. 2761
Group 1.45"

24May03
52.5g IMR 4320
FPS 2826, 2806, 2793, 2824, 2826 avg. 2815
Group approx. 1"

53.0 IMR 4320
FPS 2839, 2835, 2858, 2826, 2854 avg. 2842
Group 1"

53.5 IMR 4320
FPS 2866, 2880, 2875, 2881, 2875 avg. 2875
Group 1.25"

25May03
54.0 IMR 4320
FPS 2924, 2933, 2918, 2925, 2908 avg. 2922
Group 1.10"
FPS 2918, 2915, 2927, 2922, 2901 avg. 2917
Group .9"

21June03
55.0g IMR 4320
FPS 2925, 2939, 2945, 2944, 2950 avg. 2941
Group 1.1"

56.0g IMR 4320
FPS 2985, 2991, 2996, 3001, 2995 avg. 2994
Group 1.8"

29June03 (To verify the results of the week before)
55.0g IMR 4320
FPS 2945, 2947, 2964, 2947 (Four shots Only) avg. 2956
Group .9"

56.0 IMR 4320
FPS 2991, 2986, 2998, 3001, 2997 avg. 2995
Group 1.25"

Will make my comments in the next "comment."

First...kudos to all of you who've made this, my first post, one that earned a star!

I am a self-taught reloader, and all of my info. comes from books. Especially those of Bob Hagel. My knowledge of signs of pressure is decidedly old-school: sticky bolt, pressure rings in cases, smashed out primers, etc.

I experienced none of these in the above loads. It's obvious that I "worked up" to the 3,000 fps level. I assumed I was doing what was acceptable and really didn't think I was going to blow up the rifle.

As I said in my first post, I am a hunter first and a reloader/gun nut/target shooter waaaayyyyy second. I love the 8x57, for the simple reason that I've seen what that .323 bullet does to deer. As I said, it's devastating. Bang.....Flop. So I want that bullet trajectory to be as flat as possible, because I use it for hunting.

When I was working up these loads I had elk in mind. I never made it on the elk hunt because of work.

The trajectory and energy (as computed by a ballistic calculator) of the 180g BT at 2995 fps is quite impressive. These are the reasons that I loaded the round so hot: no visible signs of pressure at each step; little knowledge of the "physics" of rifle pressure; and to make the rifle as potent a hunting weapon as possible.

So I guess my question is, now that you've seen the above figures, and now that we know that these pressures are somewhere above 70,000 psi, how do we really know that the above pressures are unsafe?

Where does the 60,000 psi threshold come from?

Don't worry...I'm scaling the loads way back. But I'd like someone to really explain to me WHY I'm scaling these loads back other than the fact that some of you have really made me feel lucky to still have two hands and my eyesight. How do we know the loads above are unsafe? 8mmFan

Wildcat Junkie:

Your quick load figures are fascinating. Look at your predicted MV for 52.5g 4320, and then look at my actual. Identical. Whoever put together that software knows what they're doing.

What I find really interesting about your figures is how fast the 8mm can push the 200g Partition. Ditto with the 150g Hornady.

I worked up the 180g loads for the hunting this past fall because I thought I'd also be hunting deer AND elk. I didn't have time to work up the 200g Partition and the 150g Hornady. I did turn my back on the 150 some time back because, in the two deer I shot with it, the bullets went off like bombs (inside the deer) and seemed to ruin a heck of a lot of meat. Killed the deer dead, though.

But that 200g Partition at 2750 would be quite a round to be reckoned with. And that's at a somewhat "safe" pressure according to your software? I'm going to dig up the BC on it tomorrow and see what the trajectory might be on that.

Yes. Yes...I understand. Loads are to be worked up to. Thanks. 8mmFan

Carcano91 says the Carcano is one of the strongest, which is confirmed by the report of this kamikaze tester from an other board:

"Can't say I blew one up by accident, but I DID blow one up on purpose once.....sort of.

A friend had an old Terni (Carcano??) he was going to throw away.....and I rescued it. It had been painted flat black for some unknown reason, so I stripped off all the paint, thinking it would be worth the effort. WRONG! It was functional, but that's about all I can say about it.

So, I decided to see if I could blow the thing up!
I pulled a bullet from a Milsurp round, and replaced the powder with a full case of Red Dot, re-seated the bullet and off to the canal bank I went.

I tied the rifle to an old tire, and with a string attached to the trigger, I crawled down into the canal, foxhole style, and yanked the trigger.

Kaboom! I crawled out of the ditch expecting to see metal fragments and wood splinters everywhere, but much to my surprise, the rifle looked untouched! Not a hint of what had just taken place! The chamber pressures must have been off the chart, but the thing took it in stride.

Not to be outdone, I took the contraption back home, pulled another bullet, replaced the powder as before, AND pounded a SECOND bullet down the barrel,
thinking surely THIS would blow the thing up!

Back to the canal bank. Same scenario.....in the ditch, yank the string.....big smile....climbed out of the ditch. Nothing! Absolutely nothing unusual about the old war horse!

Now, I'm really PO'ed!

Went back home. More Red Dot, TWO bullets pounded down the barrel, and for good measure, I shoved a piece of allthread down the barrel on top of the two bullets, then put the barrel in a vise and gave it a 45 degree bend! This will do the trick for sure!

Back out to the canal bank, tied it to the tire, climbed into my foxhole, yanked the string......and
the most God-awful Kaboom you ever heard!!!!!!!!!

I climbed out of the ditch, and in utter amazement, here was the little rifle...action & barrel STILL intact!!
The stock was blown to smitherines.....but, unbeviable as it may sound, if someone had been shoulder-firing the weapon, they would have survived, other than having a severe case of splinters and concussion!

I'd always heard what a POS those old war-time Italian rifles were....but, I have a certain respect
for them others don't.

dewman"

Back in the vicinity of 1970 I saw a story in one of the big annual books about the development of the Ruger M77. They took one of the prototypes in 7mm Rem Mag, dipped a primed case full of Unique to the mouth and seated a 175 grain bullet, then fired it remotely. The bolt had to be pounded open with a wooden mallet and the case head was pretty much fused into the bolt head, but the rifle was intact and dimensionally unchanged. Ruger did some earlier testing of the first .44 Magnum Blackhawks back in the '50s with cases full of Bullseye and 240 grain bullets seated over them, a whole cylinder full without damage.

When I read stories like this, I wonder how folks manage to blow up guns (and sometimes themselves), yet they still do!

waitaminit,
I have been overstress testing guns for years.
Red Dot may be the fastest powder on your shelf, but the max pressure possible from a case full of powder is not just a function of the powder speed, but of the speed density product.

Lots of cartridge / bullet / gun combinations will survive Red Dot and Bullseye, but try some AA#5.....

Excellent point. These powders are bulky.

I loaded up some light cast bullets in .30-06 last night over 9 grains of Nitro 100. That amount filled about 1/3 of the case volume.

hi Roger,

100 kilos is roughly 220 pounds. Soemtimes they're bigger, but 80 - 100 is probably about average. 500 pounds must be a lot of pig!! You get many of them that size? They get bigger in our tropical areas, I believe. Where we hunt (outback New South Wales), I can count on one hand the number of times I've shot at a stationary pig, and there's no way I'd risk any of the dogs with a bullet that close to them - I use a knife. Frankly, not my favourite pastime, but the dogs love it! Part of the problem is the countryside - very open, not a lot of cover, and a fair bit of hunting pressure. Maybe because of the harshness of the country, they're tough bastards and can take a lot of lead. I don't know why, maybe because the adrenalin's up, but they can be a bitch to drop. Especially when they're running away from you.

Ricochet, what is the purpose of loading the 9 grains of Nitro in your 30-06? Is that some kind of reduced load?

I've been wanting to make a reduced load for my 8x57 for some time, but don't really know where to start. Maybe I could start with, say, 7 grains of Nitro? 8mmFan

Yep. Light plinking load. Lyman manual loads in .30-06 for similar bullets to what I'm shooting with similar fast shotgun powders like Red Dot, 700X, etc. are in the range of ~11-15 grains. Nitro 100's what I had handy. I haven't shot these yet, but I'm probably going to be in the 1500 FPS range. Some download to 5 grains or less for subsonic loads with lead bullets. If using any kind of jacketed bullet I wouldn't go below about the charge level I'm working with here. (Which is about the same amount of Bullseye the U.S. Army used to load under 150 grain FMJs for the old Guard practice ammo, in the 1200 FPS range.)



To keep it in perspective, 9 grains of Nitro 100 is exactly twice the charge in my .44 Special defense loads under a 220 grain cast bullet. (Which is about equivalent to a factory .44 Special with the lead 246 grain bullet.)



I'm not yet an 8x57 shooter (it won't be far from the .30-06, I think), but if you post on the Cast Bullets forum I guarantee you'll find some folks with plenty of experience shooting reduced loads with cast bullets in the 8mm. Lots of milsurp shooters there.