If you are P-FLR and just bumping back the shoulder 0.001-0.003". What distance do you bump the shoulder back for FLR as compared to the P-FLR?

Thanks,

Hey graybird

I consider PFLR to be where you can still feel a little crush fit when closing the bolt and that is pushing the shoulder back about .001".

I consider FLR to be where there is no crush fit and that starts when the shoulder is pushed back .002" or more.

IOW the most important determining factor in FLR is when no contact at the shoulder is happening and your gun will tell you that. However it is very helpful to be able to gauge that and put a number on it so that you don't have to chamber each round.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
If you are P-FLR and just bumping back the shoulder 0.001-0.003".

In order to have a "slight Crush Fit", the CaseHead to CaseShoulder dimension needs to be slightly longer than the ChamberFace to ChamberShoulder dimension. The actual amount is insignificant and of no importance. The actual amount varies from rifle-to-rifle because of varying Chamber and varying Die dimensions.

Since properly P-FLRing a case resizes the Case Pressure Ring, that causes the CaseHead to CaseShoulder dimension to lengthen from the as fired state. Then the Die is "simply" adjusted into the Press until the Bolt closes on the Case with a snug resistance - no measuring nor Thingies needed. And for 100% sure no Head Space Gauges are called for.

quote:

What distance do you bump the shoulder back for FLR as compared to the P-FLR?

Generally speaking, so there is no "felt" resistance when closing the Bolt on the Case. That may be with the Die touching the Shell Holder, or so there is 1/4 additional turn into the Press to remove all linkage slack. If more than that is needed, then the top of the Shell Holder needs to be slightly Filed down(on old Shell Holders) or slightly Ground down(on the new hardened Shell Holders which Mr. Woods can tell you about ).

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
If you are P-FLR and just bumping back the shoulder 0.001-0.003". What distance do you bump the shoulder back for FLR as compared to the P-FLR?

Thanks,

Normal FLRSing is controlled by your die set & shell holder.As the sized brass fits in your chamber, the amount of cartridge headspacing will be between .005" to .010" Maximum. If the shoulder is pushed back more than .010" (as it fits the chamber) case headseparations can happen as the brass stretches to fill the chamber.Look at it like this. The dies have to size the brass so it will fit into all chambers, so on sizing, the shoulder gets a little extra push back. Rifle chambers have to except all factory ammo, so they are on the long side, about .005"

Thanks for the answers guys!

The reason I asked the question is this....

I bought a set of die shims. Reason is so I could set my dies up with the shim between the die and press as a P-FLR application to set the shoulder back 0.001" or what might work for my rifle. Then, I could easily remove the shim when wanting to FLR without needing to readjust the die settings. A simple addition or subtraction of the shim would allow me to either P-FLR or FLR, respectively, depending upon the application wanted without needing to reset the dies each time.

Thanks,

quote:

I bought a set of die shims. Reason is so I could set my dies up with the shim between the die and press as a P-FLR application to set the shoulder back 0.001" or what might work for my rifle. Then, I could easily remove the shim when wanting to FLR without needing to readjust the die settings. A simple addition or subtraction of the shim would allow me to either P-FLR or FLR, respectively, depending upon the application wanted without needing to reset the dies each time.

I wish it were so simple. I use cartridge head space gages. Typically I have the one I want to use on the bench as I am sizing my brass. This one is a 308 Wilson gage.
Because I have a gage and can measure what I am doing, not only am I able to control the process, but I am able to observe changes in the process.

What I have noticed is that different brass, and brass fired a different number of times, react differently. Brass also fired in different rifles also acts differently. I don’t know why, but as an example, my FAL fired brass requires the die to be turned much more than usual to size to gage minimum.

So I really doubt your shim measurement will also set the shoulder back .001” due to the variation in brass, work hardening, and possibly, the different rifles you own.

So, what level of validation do you want? The Shaman Troglodyte will do the dance , rattle his gourd, and based on his faith of things unseen, believe everything is working to God’s good plan. Or you can measure what you are doing and control the process.

Faith believes in things unseen, science requires observation and measurements.

Either way, you can find happiness.

Well, I have a set of these thingies, so I should be able to tell what the case is doing, or better yet, what I'm doing to the case.

Hey graybird

I would use the .002" shim and set the die to where it sizes with a very slight crush fit when using the shim. Then when you take it out the die should come down .002" farther and that will push your shoulder back .002" farther which should totally eliminate the contact at the shoulder.

But I have never used these, so use your thingy to see if it is actually having a .002" impact. I use Lee Collets so the shims would not work for me.

quote:

Originally posted by graybird:
Well, I have a set of these thingies, so I should be able to tell what the case is doing, or better yet, what I'm doing to the case.

Start with .010" shim between FLRS die and shell holder. Remember you have to flrs to make the shoulder move forward. The fired brass can be shorter than the chamber. The brass will not grow to its full length till after 3 firings at a die setting. You may need to screw the die in another .001" or more after the 3 firings as there is less spring back of the brass.

quote:

Originally posted by SlamFire:
The Shaman Troglodyte blah, blah, blah

Or you can make a complete 100% FOOL of yourself, wasting time and money on Head Space Gauges where they have no real use.

quote:

Or you can make a complete 100% FOOL of yourself, wasting time and money on Head Space Gauges where they have no real use.

There is no waste if you can measure your work, control the process and learn something at the same time.

I measure from the C/L of the shoulders datum point with a (THINGY) and shoot for -.002/.003

Before I started measuring my cases I wondered why my WSM was hard to chamber even though I was FLR.
My die needed .005 ground of the face to achieve -.002/.003 setback.

I like to measure my cases.....that’s just me.

Okay

So on this thread it is

For thingies
woods
graybird
slamfire
SR4759
ted thorn

Against thingies
HC

Hmmmmm

Better go get some reinforcements, HC (I grow bigger tomatoes too )

quote:

Better go get some reinforcements, HC

add me to the H C side.....I don't need any more thingys hanging around either.

One can match the headspace of his brass to the chamber without thingys.....(it's kinda a technical name isn't it)

I'll side with the "Head Space Gauge-ers" too. (Hot Core knows this, so this won't come as a shock to him ).

My personal reason for using a gauge to determine shoulder bump achieved: it allows me to quantify what bump my die setting produces, and does away with the worry that a felt "crush fit" might arise from other parts of the case - as opposed to the shoulder.

I do have to admit, though, that as long as your die setting over time does not lead to case head separations, it strictly does not matter whether you arrived at that particular setting using a gauge or simply feel. If Hot Core, vapodog and the other "feeler-ers" get the right results, then they should be good to go even without a gauge. To each his own...

- mike

If these dies fit between the lock nut on the die and the top of the press, all they are is a formalize variation on putting a flat stock washer or such in between the lock nut and the press top. Folks have been doing that for years and years. I know I have. I've never miked the washer however.
I was interested in chamber fit but not enough to buy thingies. My sloppy approach seemed to work well however. And, as a added bonus, my brass developed the highly desirable donut where the shoulder meets the neck. That, IMO, helps to align the cartridge in the chamber. To develpe the donut, I think you're gonna need a space longer than .001 or .002".

If I make a shim from flat stock or a washer instead of buying it and use it to keep from resetting my dies and to get a better chamber fit, does that make it a thingie?? I hope not 'cause, in my mind, a thingie must be bought and serves to provide you with "nice to know info" but really provides no vital knowledge toward the end results.

Just my $.02 worth for whatever reason. I went the more expensive route. I have 2 resizing dies for my rifles. 1 for FL resizing and one to PFLR. The FL die was set up using a THINGY to set the shoulder to an unfired factory cartridge. The PFLR is adjusted to set the shoulder back about 0.002" on a fired cartridge. This setup seems to work fine for me and for hunting, I try to use once fired cases that are PFLR and I ALWAYS run them thru the chamber before taking them out in the field. I personally like the "THINGY's" but then again, I'm not as advanced as some others on the board but I've never had a problem. As a side note, I'd suggest you get some brass shim stock and make your shims. Then you know the actual amount of set back you have.
Bear in Fairbanks

Please add me to the thingy side. I like gauges.

Hey Woods, You having to use a Calculator Thingy to keep track?

quote:

What distance do you bump the shoulder back for FLR as compared to the P-FLR?

Well, since a fired case has already shrunk back from full chamber (shoulder) length, I just match the fired dimension and go.

If we gonna "full length" resize it don't matter how much we set the shoulder back, it will be controlled by the limit on how far we can jam a fired case into the die.

Add me to the "thingy" colume, I prefer to know what the heck I'm doing and I know I can't eyeball that with any precision.

Unless you lay a set of calipers on your fired/sized brass you DO NOT know your set back.

With my gauge I can tell you if a round will chamber in my rifles even before physically doing so.

It is a custom tool I made myself.
It checks across the center datum point of the shoulder vs. the head with the help from a set of calipers.

Ted, could you please post a photo of your tool.

I am on the "thingy" list too.

I don't know what Ted's "thingie" looks like ( , nor am I sure I really want to know). What he may be referring to, could simply be a little stump of barrel (partially) chambered with the same reamer used to cut your chamber. Such gizmos are quite commonly made when you have a smith chamber a custom barrel for you.

The advantage of this approach, is that you are guaranteed that the case will headspace in the tool as it does in your barrel. In a generic tool (such as the former Stoney Point Head Space Gauge), you strictly speaking can't be sure the case will headspace on the same point of the shoulder in the tool as it does in the chamber. Does it matter?? Probably not greatly, but the custom tool is a neat and easy device to make up.

What does matter, is that your measuring setup provides good comparative measurements - fired vs sized - of case head to shoulder dimensions. It is the difference in these measurements, that will indicate the shoulder bump produced by the die setting.

OK, now I have stuck my neck out, Ted may now come back and tell us his "thingie" looks totally different from what I imagined...

- mike

quote:

Originally posted by mho:
...you strictly speaking can't be sure the case will headspace on the same point of the shoulder in the tool as it does in the chamber. Does it matter?? Probably not greatly, but the custom tool is a neat and easy device to make up.

Hey mho, So the real reason for having(totally wasting money) on a Measuring Thingy is because - it is neat!

Totally agree the Measurement Thingy does not matter at all.

quote:

What does matter, is that your measuring setup provides good comparative measurements - fired vs sized - of case head to shoulder dimensions. It is the difference in these measurements, that will indicate the shoulder bump produced by the die setting. ...

Or if the Bolt closes with a "Snug Fit" - then knowing the Measurement to 0.00X" is as useful as any answer from teenScum - totally worthless.

However,for those of you who prefer spending money on Thingys instead of Cases, Primers, Powder, and Bullets, then that is what you all should do.

Thingies- Never needed one for 40 years till i started having case separations.Some ammo would separated, some not. Made a homemade thingy as i didnt want to wait for UPS. The thingy told me shoulder set back was excessive in some brass but not all. Some 223 ammo loaded on RCBS single stage, other on Dillion RL450 (new at the time progressive). My FLRS dies, any calilber, were set/adjusted kissing the RCBS shell holder or Dillon Shell Plate. The thingy told me that the Dillon Shell Plate was the problem. Each station on the plate gave a different shoulder bump. The worst station of the 4, caused the case seperations. AR firearms used. Homemade, but it works. <IMG SRC="[url=http://i338.photobucket.com/albums/n420/joe1944usa/6ppc.jpg]

teach you to use a progressive press. Too many MORE things to go awry.

quote:

Posted 27 April 2010 08:45
Okay

So on this thread it is

For thingies
woods
graybird
slamfire
SR4759
ted thorn
( Doc )
Against thingies
HC

Hmmmmm

Well for 44 years I didn't need a thingy . After learning something I was unaware of , it turns out

I do need a THINGY !. Because closing or not closing a bolt isn't precise enough , I prefer to

KNOW , so measurement is PARAMOUNT !!!.

Hey 243winxb, Now, that is indeed a "neat" Thingy. Excellent design that did not put a huge hole in the billfold.

The only problem is that the esteAmed Mr. Woods will now toss you in with the Baling Wire and Duct Tape users.

Doc224/375
"I do need a THINGY !. Because closing or not closing a bolt isn't precise enough , I prefer to KNOW , so measurement is PARAMOUNT !!!."

My gauge was free....all it cost was my time. Almost all of my gauges are custom made by me.
I will post a picture or two sometime with it being used.

Doc224/375:
Your count is off by at least 1. Ya gotta count me in on the + side for "thingy's".
That's ok tho.
Bear in Fairbanks

I needed my thingy way more when I was younger, Oh wait thats another subjet entirely.
Is there any way to figure out how far you are pushing the shoulder back using only a caliper? I don't need any more thingys hanging around and If I had one I would just probably loose it or forget where I put it. DW
ps put me on the no thingy side.

My new Hornady cartridge head space kit just arrived from my regular source in Wellington.

For my 7mm08 cases fired in my Kimber, the fired case read 1.622 & the easy-to-chamber case reads 1.621 & the one that is hard to chamber reads 1.625. I partial FL sized the cases and turned back the FL die 1 full turn. This seems to have pushed my shoulder forward by 0.003 inch.

I am now going to start all over & see what the cases measure with a FLS with die hard against shell holder. That should give a me a good reference point for die adjustments or if I should just buy a neck die.

thanks for all the help.