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Can a simple headspace gauge, like a Wilson case gauge, measure the beginnings of a case seperation in a rifle case? Are their tolerances tight enough in the head/body area that a bulging of a few thousandths can be detected and not allow a case to drop into the gauge? I see that the RCBS CaseMaster Gauging tool can detect head seperation, but I was hoping a less expensive case headspace gauge could properly perform the task. Thanks, Jamey | ||
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No. The only good way and the cheapest by far is to just make a feeler wire from a piece of coat hanger or paper clip wire. Bend a little right angle hook at the end and file a round edge to it. Just reach inside each case and feel around at least in two places. Insipiant head separations are not uniform all around the case nor are they easy to see or even visible outside of the case. When they are visible from the outside of the case it's usually but not always a half moon on one side. A headspace gage no matter how precise it is can predict what the condition is inside of a case. The RCBS kit is nice. I have one but it's feeler is just a rod with a hook on it. No better than any piece of wire. If you can section a case that has some feel with the wire of a defect. The reason is to establish whats good or just a little stretched. Join the NRA | |||
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Streighten out a paper clip, sharpen 1 end, bend that end into a "L" shape, use this tool to drag along the inside of the case, feeling for a "V" or notch on the wall near the head. It's not a bulge that your looking for, but a thinning due to stretching of the wall head junction. BTW, this is very similar to what RCBS provides, with that tool, for this task. | |||
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I have tried that paper slip trick in the past and could not feel the ring even on cases I knew were seperating. My first clue has always been the ring that forms on the outside of the case just in front of the head. I'm not sure how a guage could detect seperation as it is caused by streaching the case, usually seen in rimmed and belted cases that headspace on other than the case shoulder. When I shot belted cases, I always partial re-sized to keep the shoulder from moving forward to far. With new cases, you could use a bit lesser charge and bullet seated just into the lands to actually form the case with the first fireing. Then revert to partial re-sizing to change the head spacing to the shoulder rather than the belt. | |||
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The headspace guage is worthless for what you are looking for. If you are using a big bore cartridge look directly in to the case for the separating groove having a strong light behind you helps. For smaller calibers an otoscope might work. A cheap bore scope my permit viewing the interiors. I have tried the wire hooks and was never happy because I could not see the actual surface. I have seen one thing that worked pretty well. An X-ray technician that was a gun crank radiographed a batch of 30 Herret cases and you could easily see the separations, even those just starting. I still have the Xrays. I am sure the modern digital equipment used by dentists would work too. To learn the wire hook method you might want to get a batch of 303 British multiple reload cases. They always have the chance to separate. | |||
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I have "felt" the groove on the inside of stretched cases, but relied more on the bright ring just forward of the case web to tell me that a case was thinning... | |||
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All cases from high pressure rifle cartridges will exhibit a pressure ring a short distance in front of the head at the point where the case wall becomes thin enough that it will no longer resist the internal gas pressures and must be supported by the chamber walls. The thicker brass to the aft of that point is strong enough that it does not expand to the size of the chamber. Given cases of identical thickness and strength, the pressure ring will be futher rearward in proportion to the amount of pressure the load fired in the case generates. Naturally, the larger the diameter of the chamber as compared to that the case, the more prominent the pressure ring will be. A case fired in a very snug chamber will show a less prominent pressure ring. The existance of this pressure ring is not an indicator that head separation is incipient, simply an indication that the case has been fired with a load creating substantial pressure. It happens that this is also the point, on the inside of the case, from which brass flows when the case is stretched. Some amount of stretching occurs even with the tightest headspace match between the case and the chamber, but stetching is greatly increased if the datum point (normally where the case shoulder bears against the chamber) is set back significantly by the sizing die in subsequent reloadings. This stretching causes the case wall, at the point of the pressure ring, to become increasingly thinner. If taken to its natural end, the case will become so thin (and work hardened) that it no longer has suffiecient material to hold the pressure and cracks at the pressure ring, ie, head separation or partial head separation. The point of thinning, which is inside the case opposite the pressure ring, is manifested in a small annualar groove or depression and can easily be felt with a paper clip feeler gauge as described in several other posts IF there has been enough case stretching to place the case in danger of head separation. If you don't feel a groove, then it is unlikley you are in danger of head separation. | |||
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The paper clip/coat hanger method is good but not near as good as just looking at the case. Every time I see the bright ring start to form I chuck the brass. I've never been able to feel the ring if I could not see it. It's even easy to see in Nickel plated brass. I had some well used Nickel plated 300 mag brass not to long ago that I pitched because a slight ring started to form. I checked them w/ my little feeler gauge and yep, there was a ring present so to the trash can it went. I prefer a filed to a point feeler rather than a rounded feeler. Seems to give me a better feel. Good Luck Reloader | |||
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Stonecreek, excellent post!  ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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The real question is, why are you getting case head seperation, and what are you going to do about it? Case head seperation is an indication that your gun has excessive headspace, or that you are setting back the shoulder by excessive sizing and creating excessive headspace, or that your action is being over stressed and flexing on firing. I would find out why the heads are sepperating rather than just chucking the brass when the rings show up. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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There can be a problem relying on looking at the outside of the case. Some plastic cartridge box dividers such as the MTM style are the same height as the point of separation. After cases have traveled to the range or hunting a few times they may appear to have a stretch ring starting when it is nothing but a scuff ring from the the cartridge box. | |||
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This is not necessarily true, Paul. All my guns have been checked by a competent gunsmith for head space at one time or another. All have proper headspacing. But after about so many reloadings, the cases are done. I do a combination of neck sizing and FL resizing for most of the guns. That is because I get better accuracy from my rifles when the case is loose enough in the chamber that the bolt closes without resistance. I FL resize only to the point that will allow the bolt to close without resistance from the case. If the bolt closes on the case without resizing, then I will neck size till the case starts causing resisitance on the boltface, at which time I will FL resize again. That is a perfectly acceptable practice. Any reloading manual will tell you that cases are about done after 5-6 reloadings, depending upon how hot the load is. This is normal, NOT an abhorition. Now if you take a new case, and a ring developes on the first shot... THAT IS A PROBLEM. But not after 5-6 firings on a cartridge similar in power to the 30-06. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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Good point, Ireload. I have experienced that before myself. I check my cases for the ring twice... once after firing them at the range, and again after I have resized and "tumbled" them. It's just one of my better habits. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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stonecreek, Outstanding explaination. I have a better understanding now of the pressure ring vs seperation issue. I have been reloading about 1 yr now for highpower. I reload for the AR 15, M1 Garand, and the M14. I understand the M1 and M14 are particularlly hard on brass. I have noticed this pressure ring on the 30-06 M1 garand cases. I was concerned that they directly indicated head seperation was going to occur. I tried the paper clip routine and had no luck feeling anything. I think I will retry it with the sharpened feeler as Reloader suggests. The headspace has checked out fine in all the rifles I use. Thanks for the great suggestions and explaination. | |||
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M14's and their Springfield clones have one of the fastest operating gas/action systems out there, in fact the brass is not quite done shrinking back from the chamber walls during obturation and the action is opening already. Even if the headspace is dead on the cases grow a lot!! M14's are very hard on brass. Max | |||
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It has been my observation over the years that if you change a belted magnum to headspace on the shoulder you will not have to worry about seperation until after at least 8 loadings. On non-magnum bottleneck cases just adjust the die to partial length size the case, bump the shoulder back just enough to close the bolt easily or neck size, or collet size the neck. The only drawback to this type of sizing is the brass must be re-fired in the same gun, and the gun cannot be an auto, a lever, or a pump. | |||
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Savage99 is right, the bent wire is by far the most common, cost effective, simply and basic way to get the job done. Besides he has a .358 I now dream about.  Member NRA, SCI- Life #358 28+ years now! DRSS, double owner-shooter since 1983, O/U .30-06 Browning Continental set. | |||
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To get the best feel of a depression or groove inside a case, i use a walnut pick with end sharpened to make a right angle sharp edge. Being heavier than wire. I get a better feel.The pic I posted of 700 HE case fired 25 times, with some loads high pressure, shows thinning, It is sectioned case on 700HE thread. I have tight chamber and exact headspace, and I have gotten used cases from BMG machine guns with big chambers that were thinned as much as my case, and they were only fired once in sloppy chamber.Ed MZEE WA SIKU | |||
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Excellent post. Some make way too much of that shiny ring. Sizing dies will also make a shiny ring. Covey16 Funny,After a rotten war like this,how hard it is to leave- Duncan Grinell-Milne | |||
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 These are two 35 Whelen cases that I had handy, one with the "ring" and one without. I would contend that the ring IS as sign of impending case falure, and should be discarded upon seeing it. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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The picture isn't showing up for me. Interested in seeing it. | |||
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 Sorry about that... i hope this is better. Thanks for the info!!! ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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And I have a 5 gallon bucket full of .223 rounds fired with a stout load of Varget thru an AR15 that develope a shiny ring at the first firing. I shoot them 5 more times and then discard them even though they are still good and have no groove inside. Never had a separation in literally thousands of rounds. Covey16 Funny,After a rotten war like this,how hard it is to leave- Duncan Grinell-Milne | |||
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Then obviously the 'ring" you are referring to on your cases are the result of tooling marks in the chamber, the source of the mark is external, rather than an internal weakness. It would be interesting to see a pic of one of your cases for comparison. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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Wylde chamber done by Accuracy Speaks. They don't leave tooling marks.  Winchester cases are worse about it than Remington. All cases are full length resized. Don't have a camera setup, but I have no reason to make this up. It's a common phenomenon . Like anything else in reloading, use your own judgement. Covey16 Funny,After a rotten war like this,how hard it is to leave- Duncan Grinell-Milne | |||
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Covey, I am not saying your making this up. Quite the contrary. There is a mark upon your cases that would be most informative to see. After all, the issue with insipient head/case seperation is knowing the warning signs so we may avoid it. It is also equally important not to be fooled by markings which are not the bright ring warning sign of case seperation. If you don't have a digital camera for the quick clic and post, that's fine, too. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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Hey mike So the case on the left has started separating and the case on the right has not. The case on the left has a different kind of ring and it is in a slightly different place. The pressure ring on the right is as Stonecreek has explained. I do not have a rifle or reload for a rifle (24 now) that does not put a pressure ring on the outside of the case after the first firing. It is the best way to tell if the brass is new or has been fired. That is what the case on the right looks like. ____________________________________ There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice. - Mark Twain | Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others. ___________________________________ | |||
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You got it, Woods. Now I must point out that there is not a seperation on the Left Case, but the seperation would occur if I were to reload it again. ______________________________ Well, they really aren't debates... more like horse and pony shows... without the pony... just the whores. 1955, Top tax rate, 92%... unemployment, 4%. "Beware of the Free Market. There are only two ways you can make that work. Either you bring the world's standard of living up to match ours, or lower ours to meet their's. You know which way it will go." by My Great Grandfather, 1960 Protection for Monsanto is Persecution of Farmers. | |||
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The rcbs case master will tell you everything you want to know,,and then some,,,I've bought a few k of "once fired" 223 cases,,,usually pitch 1/3 of them due to seperation evidence.Never had one come apart in a rifle,,but have had them come apart in the sizing die,,,Clay | |||
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