Just a moment of your time if I may chaps, which seating die is gives the most consistent seating depths and most repeatable adjustments?

I have tired the standard RCBS, Redding and Lee types and they all have their shortcomings and advantages.

I don't mind spending a bit of money to get the best in the terms I have mentioned above but don't want to get into arbour presses and benchrest esoterica.

with thanks,

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:
Just a moment of your time if I may chaps, which seating die is gives the most consistent seating depths and most repeatable adjustments?

I have tired the standard RCBS, Redding and Lee types and they all have their shortcomings and advantages.

I don't mind spending a bit of money to get the best in the terms I have mentioned above but don't want to get into arbour presses and benchrest esoterica.

with thanks,

Then go with the RCBS, they are the most common. It also depends on what cartridge your loading to some degree, but for the most part, RCBS will do what needs to be done.

My apologies, I should have mentioned why I didn't like the ones I've tried.

The RCBS dies I used belonged to a friend and produced very good ammo. I didn't like hte fact that they were screwdriver and locknut adjustable as even using a dummy round I found it hard to maintain consistent seating depth with this design. I've not used the crimping feature as most of my hunting bullets do not have a cannelure.

The Lee die is easy to adjust but as the aluminium adjustment knob wears it becomes looser and looser leading to wandering seating depths. It also is hard to get consistent between reloading sessions, even using a dummy round. I do like the fact the shell holder contacts the bottom of the die, it makes seating feel a little more consistent, if nothing else. I also like the fact that the steel bullet seating stem "floats" underneath the adjustment knob, effectively self centring on the bullet and case neck. The combination of Lee Collet die and bullet seater has produced 30.06 ammo with less run out than 6.5x55 ammo produced by a friend with his Arbour press and benchrest dies. Of course his kit produces consistently quality ammunition and mine will turn out the odd slightly wonky round so the comparison is not altogether valid.

The Redding die is a like a better built version of the Lee die in that the adjustment knob is steel and is provided with a lock nut. There is also a crimping feature which I have tried one with frankly inconclusive results. I don't like the fact that I still have a problem setting the same seating depth between reloading sessions ( even using a dummy round it always seems to vary by around +- 0.002"), that the die has to float some way above the shell holder when the ram is fully raised and that the seating stem doesn't self centre in the same way as the Lee.

The Foster seater - with or without the micrometer adjustment - is about as good as it gets for the $$$. The Redding Competition seater is better finished than the Forster, but works in exactly the same way for a higher price.

- mike

Forster...their standard Benchrest seating die is pretty good. Basically it has a sliding insert that is pretty much the exact shape of the cartridge case (as though they make that part with a chamber reamer) and at the top of it is a long cylindrical chamber at almost bullet diameter that insures the bullet is seated straight, and this whole assembly moves up against spring pressure against a seating stem that seats the bullet. I use them and really like them. I'll admit they don't make them in a whole array of calibers. Another too is if you have one you can call them and just order the insert and seating stem and make your die multiple calibers.

http://www.forsterproducts.com...id=24823&catid=19938

I like the Redding Competition Seating Die. I load three different bullets for .223 Rem/5.56. Just record the setting of the die and dial it back in for that bullet later. It really is that easy.

quote:

The RCBS dies I used belonged to a friend and produced very good ammo. I didn't like hte fact that they were screwdriver and locknut adjustable as even using a dummy round I found it hard to maintain consistent seating depth with this design. I've not used the crimping feature as most of my hunting bullets do not have a cannelure.

Hmm! Can't see how that's causing you a problem G!

I use nothing but RCBS for rifle, well and pistol too before the ban, since the 1970s and have never had a problem with the screw and locknut feature.

Here's what I do.

1) Back up the lock nut on the die body AND the locknut on the bullet seater screw.

2) Put a sized case in the press and turn the die down until I feel it contact the top of the sized case.

3) Back it off a full turn.

4) Screw the die body locknut down until it touches the top of the press.

5) Carefully screw BOTH the die die body locknut back out as if they were a single unit and when "out" a turn I lock the locknut with the allen key.

6) Now turn the die all the way back into the press.

THE DIE IS NOW SET SO AS NOT TO CRIMP.

7) Insert a powder charged case with a bullet on top.

8) Screw the seating screw down until it touches the bullet.

9) Drop the ram to take the powder charged case oou of the die.

10) By eye screw the bullet seater screw down until it is near to where you think you want the bullet seated but about 1/4" "not quite there".

11) Raise the ram and see where your bullet is now seated too.

11) Drop the ram.

13) By quarter or even one eight of a turn screw the seater plug down that small amount.

REPEAT 110, 12, 13) until correct seating depth is reached.

LEAVE THE ROUND UP IN THE DIE WITH RAM RAISED.

14) using first fingers then pliers or Mole grip then turn down the seater lug lock ring. Obviously the seater plug cannot move as it is stopped from doing by the bullet.

15) Now drop the ram to lower the round and apply a final tightening to the seater plug lock ring. The seater plug itself should not move when you do that even though no round is now in the die.

Done! Or as the annoying meerkat says, "Simples!"

Now I the leave them locked like that so that the thing can be removed from the press, all locked up, and put back in it will seat and crimp (or not crimp) to the same register every time.

In those calibres where I shoot two bullet styles I set up a second die the same. Used RCBS seating dies are cheap enough on eBay even if you have to buy a full two die set.

My secret?

By one NORMAL full length size set and buy a second NECK SIZE set and, if you wish, a third SMALL BASE size set and you've now got THREE seater and crimp dies to play with!

Ha! In fact on all my cases I will use the SMALL BASE die set after every third or fourth firing.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:
I like the Redding Competition Seating Die. I load three different bullets for .223 Rem/5.56. Just record the setting of the die and dial it back in for that bullet later. It really is that easy.

Forster has that with their micrometer die along with their good bullet seating system.

Why are you so concerned with repeatable adjustments? Why not just get a seater die (and IMO they will all do the job) and set it up for one cartridge and one bullet and leave it alone. Dedicated so to speak. I have a set of Forster dies that are dedicated for one rifle, one type case, and one bullet.

....or make up dummy rounds (from bad cases you wouldn't use for reloading anymore) to set your seating die? They are very repeatable.

I agree with smokinJ. I do this with a lee and get rounds within a thousand. If you are not using a divise to measure off the ogive the problem may be in bullet variation not seating.

Redding Competition Seating Die

Case is fully supported and bullet seated concentric to the case micrometer adjustment gives precise repetable adjustments of seating depth particularly useful when working up loads.

OP sez dummy rounds don't get it????

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Forster has that with their micrometer die along with their good bullet seating system.

I've heard Redding copied Forster's design.

quote:

Originally posted by Sam:

quote:

Originally posted by SmokinJ:
Forster has that with their micrometer die along with their good bullet seating system.

I've heard Redding copied Forster's design.

I'm not sure who had them first, but I know Redding use to be really expensive, but they have come down on their prices.

http://www.neiljones.com/

I use a set of Niel jones dies on a .338 wildcat cartdrige that I used to shoot. They are very repeatable. I ordered them back in the 90's as I wasnt very happy with the quality of the dies I was useing at the time.

That said, for all my sub moa rifles now, I use Redding competition dies, and I am very happy with how accurate they are.

Steve.

Thank you Gents, much good information to digest here.

There seem to be several options and I'm undecided as to which is the best.

By way of addressing points raised as to loading technique I use an measure OAL to the ogive using a stoney point comparator kit with the 30 cal bushing honed out to .300". I make sure the inside of seating die and it's stem are clean. I also clean the shell holder. I seat the bullet half way on the initial stroke, lower the ram slightly rotate the case by 180 degrees and raise the ram fully.

DJM identified an important feature, ie the ability to be able to dial in precise seating depth changes for load development. This is a point stronly in favour of the Redding/Forster competition design if the micrometer adjustment is truly repeatable.

Enfield spares has my gratitude for that thorough guide to setting up the RCBS dies. He makes a strong case for the ownership of multiple dies per calibre as I can see how the adjustment of the RCBS type would hold up very repeatably if not constantly adjusted between loads. I currently load 6 different bullet weights for my 06 though, that's a lot dies to keep rust free though...

I am torn gentlemen, a micrometer adjustment would make load development much more enjoyable and if good enough for that then will be good enough for subsequent bulk loadings whereas a dedicated RCBS-type seating die for each load would be initially fiddly but rock solid thereafter.

Which way to go?

Any of the "competition" (what RCBS calls their micrometer seater) dies will do what you want, just write down the setting (and leave the body locknut alone).
The RCBS version is a Lachmuler style, and is not cartridge specific IE: I use my "30-06" die to seat my 300 RUM Imp also (but it's to deep to use with the 308 Win, but I suspect that a 308 die would handle most of the 30 cals). The neck is the only thing that's aligned with the bullet (floating guide) and the bullet insertion window is convenient to use

You are asking more of a seating die than can be schieved or is needed. For a hunting rifle, an OAL variation of 2 thou is meaningless. The bullets themselves vary that much, or more.

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
You are asking more of a seating die than can be schieved or is needed. For a hunting rifle, an OAL variation of 2 thou is meaningless. The bullets themselves vary that much, or more.

+- 2 thou is a variation of 4 thou, unfortunately my hunting rifle can tell the difference.

Bullets tend to be very uniform, at least the ones I use.

I tried batching some nosler accubonds by bearing surface length and gave up after finding precisely one that varied by more than 1 thou out of two boxes.

stop measuring to the tip of the bullet.
measure to the ogive then see if it is wandering.

In the late, late eighties, I shot Hunter Class Bench Rest. Tightneck FL .308 Win case. Everybody seems like, shot Sierra 150gr Match Kings. Two guys at the LaGrande Club I shot with and I went together and bought bulk, like 6,000 of them. We used the Sinclair hexhead bullet guaging tool on calipers. They varied from short, to medium to long, total variance .0014". We tediously sorted all 6K one winter into those three lengths, then split them by length. Sierra used three separate final point up dies, and spit them all into one tub for boxing. IIRC we were all jumping about .0015".
That next summer I shot seventeen matches in the TCL, and made the top five every match. My scores were all 247/250 or better. I finished seventh in the country. up from about twentieth.
Sorting by ogive is critical. I still do this today, when accuracy is the total focus.

All that, to say that the most consistent seating is with a die that seats on the ogive, not the tip.

Rich

I am measuring to the ogive chaps. Even if the bullets were different lengths the depth to which they are seated should be the same unless there are large variances in ogive shape.

If you only shoot one rifle you probably do not shoot enough to make much difference.

When everything else, ie case length,etc is right, my Redding Competition Seaters put them in the case dead nut time after time. The micrometer is nice if you see you are .002 off then just dial it in. The sleeve system in it insures it is as close as can be in alignment. Many times if I check them for run out the needle barely moves so maybe less than 0.001 inches.

As was said they arent particularly inexpensive but they are a good value for what they do. Maybe Forester had it first, I cant say. They may be just as good. But I can see the markings on the Redding mic head much better.

I got a couple them to try. Then after seeing the results I got one in every caliber I load that Redding makes one for.

Now for soft lead bullets, and in a progressive, I think the Dillons are the way to go all the way, although I have used the Redding Competition with as expected excellent results. The Dillon is just so easy to clean any lead out of without loosing any settings.

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
If you only shoot one rifle you probably do not shoot enough to make much difference.

I'm sorry, you've lost me?

Ghubert

Back from time out. Might it just be practical to seat all your rounds and then batch sort them out into COAL's, keeping out those exactly the length your rifle likes best for when it counts most? That's kinda what they do with weighing brass, bullets, etc. for uniformity anyway

2 cents (and cheers!)

quote:

You are asking more of a seating die than can be schieved or is needed. For a hunting rifle, an OAL variation of 2 thou is meaningless. The bullets themselves vary that much, or more.

Plus your Seating Die most probably doesn't exactly fit the nose/tip/ogive of your selected bullet. Add the bullet variances for a hunting bullet & Voilá, there's the discrepancy.

Ogive is the most important in bullet seating and who cares what mechanical device locks the Seater into the Die anyway? As long as it remains the same (again, if it fits the bullet exactly).

I gotta agree with Gerry. The micro knob is nice and it certainly looks impressive but it is a whistle and bell that isn't truly needed. The same results can be achieved with the ordinary screw slot and lock nut. It is the seater that counts.

"The RCBS version is a Lachmuler style, and is not cartridge specific IE:"

That was Vickerman, so far as I know Lachmiller never had that side window gimmick.


"The neck is the only thing that's aligned with the bullet (floating guide) and the bullet insertion window is convenient to use"

That side window may be convenient I suppose but, since the short, loosely fitted guide sleeve only loosely aligns the bullet and case mouth, it doesn't do a lot for concentricity. Both Lyman and Herter made rifle seater dies in the 60s with short, sloppy fitted, gravity controlled sleeves much like Hornady's is today. They also cost more than conventional seaters without adding any benefit for accuracy so they also died out of the market. In my opinion, neither of RCBS' very costly 'competition dies' nor the Hornady's have a valid claim on that label.

Forster's seaters have a full length, snug fitted, spring loaded body sleeve that actually works the same as a Wilson type BR searter; it does help bullet alignment. Ditto Redding's because they copied Forster after the patent protection expired. (And Redding has also copied Lyman's excellant patent expired "M" expander, at least for handgun dies.)

quote:

Originally posted by Ghubert:

quote:

Originally posted by SR4759:
If you only shoot one rifle you probably do not shoot enough to make much difference.

I'm sorry, you've lost me?

What I was trying to say is the differences you get with a nice seater die are hard to appreciate if you do not shoot much. It takes quite a bit of shooting with multiple rifles (and multiple die sets) to shoot well enough to appreciate a good seater. Many of us get excellent results with ordinary old dies because the die often does not make much difference. I will admit they are nice to adjust.