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It has been much fun watching you do a Polka around my questions and the issue at hand. But your dancing skills leave much to be desired. quote:Yes, it was. You called this simple statement which most here agree with: quote: quote:And that you had �Taken appart� quote:You are making a blanket generalization that �pointed bullets don�t work well� in the above conditions. First, lets look at the statement itself. Not counting the big bores, I�d venture to guess that more than 90% of the game animals taken by members of this board are taken with pointed bullets. And the vast majority of those are taken at short to medium distances. And the pointed bullets �work well� so regularly that when one doesn�t people call it �bullet failure��not �should have used a round nose.� Do you realize how many millions of times your generalization has been disproven over the years? Or are you calling nearly everybody on this board and basically anybody who has talked about hunting anywhere, anytime, a liar? So let�s see. Most Nosler Partitions don�t work well. Sorry for all of you fools out there who use them. X bullets don�t work well either. Nor do Failsafes. A-Frames? They suck the big one as well. TBBC? Only a loser would use those. GameKings? Junk. GS Custom? For those waiting for your orders, fear not�the stupid things won�t work well anyway! You�re better off without them! You see, blunt boy, your generalization is contrary to what most reading this thread have seen with their own eyes�a pointed bullet working well at a short to medium range even when launched at a moderate velocity. The fact that you�d say such a thing is �erroneous� and you�ve �treated and refuted it� would be even more comical if it wasn�t so sad. On to how you attempt to back this wild fantasy of yours up: quote:Every single reason you �explained� had to do with a bullet being heavy for its diameter. When it was pointed out to you that many round noses aren�t very heavy for their diameter and many pointed bullets are, your only response is to plug your ears and yell, �La, la, la I CAN�T HEAR YOU!� quote:I�ll read anything you said about the shape of the nose making a difference 20 times. That�s right, you didn�t say anything about that, did you? �They�re heavier so....� is the extent of your arguement. Come on, give it another try. Say something about how they open more quickly, are immune to deflection from brush, feed better in a particular action, etc. Or say that while it just might be possible that a pointed bullet can work well, if it had a round nose it might work even better in X situation because of Y. At least try to say SOMETHING ABOUT THEIR ROUND NOSE!!!! We all know heavy bullets have advantages. Even those that are pointed. quote:How many animals have you taken with a MatchKing? I thought so. That�s why I included that. It wasn�t an arguement. I just wanted to make sure you didn�t get hung up on the word �Match� as some people do and go off on some other misguided tangent. I can also say the same for Partition, Barnes X, Speer, Hornady, etc pointed bullets if that makes you feel better. quote:Wrong, master of the obtuse. I could have stuck my fist into the exit wound and pulled out the heart�had there been a heart left to pull out. Neither a FMJ or a .32 ACP could have caused such a wound. But that pointed bullet worked �well.� quote:The problem is you�re acting as if you�ve written a thesis on the reasons pointed bullets don�t work well. All you�ve said is heavy bullets work well. I agree, that doesn�t need to be repeated. It wasn�t even germain to the discussion the first time you said it. Try comming up with something that is. | |||
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I have used about half a box of 154gr Hornady RN in my 7x57(MV 2,650fps) I really, really liked their performance on our muntjac, roe and fallow which generaly fell down and died on the spot yet with little meat damage. They were zeroed just under an inch high and were extremely accurate. BUT all the bullet performance in the word matters nought if the bullet doesn't hit the target. At 200 they were falling out of the sky, dropping much more than JBM ballistics or Hornady said they should. When I realised that the drop twixt 200 and 225yards was equivalent to a miss I gave up. (note long or high zeros don't work well with our small deer unless you aim off or accept bruising to the haunch) Now I shoot a 139gr Hornady BTSP at 2,800fps but not for much longer. Sure it shoots flatter but meat damage is bad and penetration not quite up to scratch for the red stags that will form part of it's 'do it all' diet. 140gr partitions are next to try. | |||
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1894: your posting clearly outlines the virtues, but also the limitations of this bullet type. It is indeed remarkable that the performance of these old and proven bullets remains far "better" than it would be expected, at least expected by unexperienced hunters ; the interesting part is trying to reason, analyze and determine *why* this is so ![[Smile]](images/icons/smile.gif){kind=icon} . And I really wonder when one of the major ammo producers will recognize the signs and the existing customer demand, and start loading the .303 British with a 215 grains SP RN again... Carcano | |||
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I believe the facts are ......given two identical bullets in caliber weight , construction , and striking velocity , the spitzer will likely always penetrate deeper than the roundnose. This is not rocket science or ballistic magic , but plain old common sense. The roundnose typically has more lead exposed , so it begains to open faster. The roundnose has a blunter shape , so it begains to flatten out an instant faster than the pointed bullet.........it's really very simple..... | |||
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quote:Well, I am sorry to burst the idea, but already the "given" in the first line is not a fact, but a false presupposition. Typically, the bullet-cartridge combinations to be juxtaposed - in RL as well as here in this thread as - involve a heavier, slower RN (with higher SD) against a lighter, faster Spitzer bullet (with lower SD). This is what has to compared against each other in performance. Carcano | |||
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Carcano........even a middle aged dirt farmer and cow nurse like me knows that comparing a slow heavy for caliber round nose to a light for caliber fast pointed bullet is NOT A VALID comparision of the two nose types . You are comparing apples to oranges..... Take , say, a Remington factory load of 30/06.....180 gr roundnose Core-lock against the factory 180 gr Core-lock spitzer and compare the terminal results. You then may have something to talk about .........there are plenty of heavy for caliber spitzers in existence that can be loaded to moderate velocity , as well as round noses of middle weight that can be pushed quite fast in many cartridges.......... [ 06-11-2003, 20:08: Message edited by: sdgunslinger ] | |||
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quote:A primary error: you had thus misunderstood, what the whole thread began with, and is all about. It is exactly and centrally about comparing such - indeed very different - cartridge-bullet combinations and their respective strengthes and weaknesses. Nothing else. quote:I see what you are heading at. And you are not wrong, per se. But this is not any useful comparison, and it never was the subject of the thread. While your argument is totally licit for hermeneutic or theoretical purposes, it is also totally moot in the context of applied hunting ballistics. Which was seafire's starting point, and is the only thing I am disputing and exemplifying here. The only one. Regards, and thanks for your objection, Carcano [ 06-11-2003, 20:18: Message edited by: carcano91 ] | |||
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1894, Have you considered trying the Hornady 154 Spire Point? It will flatten the trajectory a bit and may prove a good all-purpose bullet. BigIron | |||
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I think one of the advantages that the round nose has is that the manufacturer has a freer hand in making a bullet that works as opposed to one that passes medium tests in gun magazines etc. Some years ago a chap from Hornady said that to me. If someone posted up that the 180 Hornady round nose in 30 calibre all blew to bits or whatever in some medium no one would care. When Geoff McDonald introduced his pointed Protected Point Woodleighs he said to me in an email that they were introduced for marketing reasons. Mike | |||
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The RN bullets that I use were built for very specific puposes and I use them for those purposes. It's a safe bet that a .258 86 grain RN or FP was built for optimum performance in a .25-20. A .258 117 RN is intended for .25-35 or maybe .250-3000. A .284 175 grain RM is designed for 7x57 Mauser. A .307 or .308 170 grain RN or FP is meant for .30-30. The list could go on for a good bit, but you can pretty well expect these bullets to behave exactly as they are spozed to behave within the range limits of the cartridge. But a .30 cal 150 grain spitzer might get stuck into anything from a .30 Remington to a .300 Weatherby. It's gonna fail at one end of the spectrum or the other and might fail at both and only work well in the middle. | |||
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quote:They are in my drawer waiting for some barrel time! I plan on breaking a silent rule of only using Viht powders and will try some AA4350 which QuickLOAD seems to show as providing the best velocities whilst at the same time burning 100% for reduced muzzle flash. | |||
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I agree that RN bullets are very accurate and in some rifles they really shoot great, but so do spitzers... I will state emphatically that the new plastic pointed bullets are the most revolutionary accurate bullets in the modern world...and that's a fact that changes the whole ball of wax. But I don't consider them a hunting bullet, however with the bonded core Nosler bal. tip that too may change... The advancement in bullets over the last 10 years is an amazement to this old man who grew up dealing with one bullet failure after another... The only old time bullet that was ever worth a flip was the corelokt RN and to lesser extent the spitzer, and its still about as good a bullet as there is, and the new corelokt with its bonded core just has to be a perfect bullet. Today we have a lot of perfect fail proof bullets in both RN, Simi spitzers and spitzer and comparing the shape of the nose is an exercise in futility since they all work.... I do love the look of a RN bullet in my 450-400, 416 or 475 it just looks like death and destruction on Buffalo, Lion and what not, but everybody needs a little nostalgia and thats what this thread is all about, defending the good old days and RN bullets, I plead guilty! | |||
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