Got to the range tonight shot 20 rds. Conditions overcast and breezy. Temp 69 f.
Four shot groups. First group outside to outside 1.75". Group#2 I must have had a bout of tourette's or epylepsy outside to outside 3". This is where I would normally clean, I dint this time, third group outside to outside 1.75". These were all 180 gr SGK with 81 gr
H-1000. The next two groups were 180 gr Accubonds with 81 grs of H-1000. Group four outside to outside was 1.75". Fifth group outside to outside was 1.10". This is a different trend than what was happening sort of. The last group is still the best. I think I actually pulled the third shot of the last group, it might have been tighter. My question is do I clean, prior to shooting again or do I go back to the range and shoot again first? This is a new barrel with now 70rds down the tube. Any comments are welcome. I am trying to get the loada worked out so I can then practice at extended ranges and in different positions rather than from the bench. Thanks

I have a stainless 7mm Mag that doesn't shoot tight groups (under 1", 3 shot groups) until I shoot at least 12 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned the barrel in two years and have approximately 120 rounds through it since then.
I'm not going to clean it until the accuracy starts to get worse.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a stainless 7mm Mag that doesn't shoot tight groups (under 1", 3 shot groups) until I shoot at least 12 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned the barrel in two years and have approximately 120 rounds through it since then.
I'm not going to clean it until the accuracy starts to get worse.

excellent post.

Welcome to the wonderful world of guns and reloading, where there are no hard and fast rules, just observed conventions.
In other words:
What goes on with Bob's rifle may not go on in yours, and it most likely wont work in Steve's either.
Let the fun begin..........................

I have a 22LR that is ammo finicky and thus I have not shot any copper plated bullets through it and have not cleaned the barrel since installing this barrel. It has around 2,500 rounds through and does not show even the slightest drop in accuracy. Doing ammo tests with this rifle - It has always taken about 20 to 25 rounds for the barrel to "settle-in" with an ammo type change. It likes CCI blazer ammo best of the cheap stuff and Eley Match EPS best of the more costly stuff.

However, all my center fire rifles begin to drop off in accuracy after 20 to 30 rounds without a cleaning. All but one will shoot first shot flyers with a cleaned and oiled barrel. I will clean these barrels, sight them in and leave them dirty through the hunting season - Then clean when season is over.

I wish I had a CF like Fjold that did not need barrel cleaning but just haven't run across it yet.

I have a Rem 700 in 375 H&H that I have sighted dead nuts on at 100yds. Last weekend at the range a buddy of mine shot it. His groups from the same rifle were at one o'clock and an inch and a half high. Different hold, different POI. Point being, there's a miriad of variables involved in the shooting game.

Honestly, it is time to try some new things. Over an inch is not a good group.....But, that is why we reload. Not knocking you, I just know how long it can take to get a gun to shoot good. Pick up a copy of the Precision Shooters reloading guide and the Varmint Hunter magazine reloading video's....I will bet the house.......You can get a 1/2 inch group with some of the techniques they advocate......

A 3-shot group is statistically not very valid, I remember reading an article in a German gun magazin written by Swiss balistician Dr. Beat Kneubühl. He stated that you would need at least 7 to 10 shots for a reliable result.

Of course, if shots 1 - 3 hit into the very same spot the probability that shots 4 - 10 are very far off is extremely small, it does however still exist.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I'm not going to clean it until the accuracy starts to get worse.

Cleaning is individual. Hunting in an environment which is very humid it could be wise to applicate a very small amount of, say, teflon in the barrel and taping the muzzle.
Some years ago I did an investigation on parallax correction on European scopes and in a week time I fired some 500 rounds without cleaning. You will not believe me, 5-shot groups still were sub 1 MOA! Sako, .270 Winchester, Sierra gamekings.
Jan.

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a stainless 7mm Mag that doesn't shoot tight groups (under 1", 3 shot groups) until I shoot at least 12 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned the barrel in two years and have approximately 120 rounds through it since then.
I'm not going to clean it until the accuracy starts to get worse.

Hey Chain, I simply don't agree with Fjold on this practice at all. Where I live and hunt if you do that, you are asking for "Pits" in the Bore.

I clean every 6-9 shots, but prefer to clean after EVERY shot. Even clean them on occasion when they haven't been touched since the last cleaning. If you want your "tools" and rifles to last, you will find over time that cleaning them extends their actual useful life.
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Fjolds story could just as easily have been about the way some folks take care of their engines.

Got 120,000 miles on it and never changed the oil. I'm not going to change it until the speed starts to decrease or....

I have been thinking about it after last night, I think my barrel shoots a little better after a few rounds. But more so I shoot better after a few rounds. I think that I need to focus on my shooting/bench habits and really pay close attention at the reloading bench for consistancy. When I bear down and concentrate it seems that my groups shrank. I wrote a detailed account of each shot and where it landed, minutes between shots everything. This kind of showed me it just might be my fault. I also mightg drop back to 80 gr load as that is the best group I have ever shot was with an 80 gr load. Thanks

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

Originally posted by Fjold:
I have a stainless 7mm Mag that doesn't shoot tight groups (under 1", 3 shot groups) until I shoot at least 12 rounds through it. I haven't cleaned the barrel in two years and have approximately 120 rounds through it since then.
I'm not going to clean it until the accuracy starts to get worse.

Hey Chain, I simply don't agree with Fjold on this practice at all. Where I live and hunt if you do that, you are asking for "Pits" in the Bore.

I clean every 6-9 shots, but prefer to clean after EVERY shot. Even clean them on occasion when they haven't been touched since the last cleaning. If you want your "tools" and rifles to last, you will find over time that cleaning them extends their actual useful life.
---

Fjolds story could just as easily have been about the way some folks take care of their engines.

Got 120,000 miles on it and never changed the oil. I'm not going to change it until the speed starts to decrease or....

I clean my other guns (blue and stainless) after every range session or hunt and I clean my varmint guns during the hunt if I'm shooting alot of colony varmints. Where I hunt and shoot out west there is very little humidity but I did live in South Carolina for 7 years and none of my guns have pitted bores.

I have a Remington 788 that I bought brand new in 1975 that has been with me moving from CA, to Florida, Mass, South Carolina, Idaho and back to CA. It has over 10,000 rounds through it and doesn't have a speck of rust on it.

This one gun just happens to shoot better after the barrel is fouled and continues to shoot well the longer it is shot. So I'm running an experiment in it.

I change the oil in my vehicles at 3,000 miles or when the computer says that oil life is 50%. I traded in my 1979 Dodge van with 280,000 miles on it.

Some time back I was talking to another shooter at our range in Oak Ridge. Seems he was part of security for the nuclear weapons plant in OR. He said he had just gotten back from a training session with some very serious Secret Service personnel out east. As part of their training, they were shooting .308 sniper rifles at targets set at unknown ranges, rapid fire. He said one fella in particular never missed. The shooter told him that he NEVER cleaned the bore, because he knew exactly where the next round was going. He said he figured he had 18,000 rounds through that barrel, uncleaned.

Like Frank, once I sight in with hunt loads, I don't clean the bore until the end of the hunting season. And I've just about quit using brushes altogether.

JMHO, YMMV.

MKane160

I clean after 12-15 rds. I assume 2 foulers to stabilize after good cleaning. My stainless barrels are left dirty for the season with just a dry patch between hunts, where I hunt blued barrels need cleaning between hunts. I just fire a couple of foulers before going in the bush. My muzzels are always taped while hunting.

Some weapons are like people some require cleaning some don't !. I would never store a weapon dirty !. Not to say if it's being used frequently once a week or so I would clean it every time !. Generally Faster ( Velocity )the load the more quickly fouling will occur , Powder type manufacture, bullet material also has an effect. Some people scrub the day lights out of a bore after 1 - 5 shots . I've never seen a reason for that . Depending upon caliber and charge I generally shoot 5 foulers . Some times I'll take a "Dry " patch run through the bore , some times not . I then will shoot 20 - 100 rounds inspect the bore . then decide if it's the weapon , operator or loads . I generally don't shoot more than 20 rounds of a particular load , before changing to a different load .

Borrowing a line from a movie ; There are several degrees of cleanliness , None of which are squeaky !!.