What depth do you trim your primer pockets to uniform them in large rifle?

Do you turn your necks?

Do you measure each individual rifle's chamber length and trim brass accordingly to that rifle?

Do you weigh brass? If so, what are your tolerances, say, for the .270 in terms of acceptable wt. variances?

Do you always check your finished cartridge length from base to ogive?

Spin your stuff on a concentricity gauge? What are your acceptable tolerances here?

What is your accuracy expectation and what are you planning to shoot at ?
Not many would choose a .270 if chasing competition accuracy .Are you talking factory sporter or full blown heavy barrelled custom ? Most factory rifles don't have the accuracy potential to justify the time and effort .
My custom .243 AI will shoot in the 3's for 5 shots without employing any of the techniques you mention . Buy quality brass and Redding dies and you probably won't need to bother either .
Bullet selection , powder selection and charge weight , seating depth all have much greater influence on accuracy than any of the factors you mention .

customized/accurized hunting rifles.

(typical custom bbls).

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
What depth do you trim your primer pockets to uniform them in large rifle?

Hey Doc, I use a tool made by "Whitetail Design & Engineering" and it stops cutting as the upper flange comes in contact with the Casehead. I believe the depth of cut is 0.120", but it has been awhile since I measured it.

quote:

Do you turn your necks?

No more and never NEVER again.

quote:

Do you measure each individual rifle's chamber length and trim brass accordingly to that rifle?

No, I use the "Lee Case Length Gauge & Cutter" tools to set the length exactly the same from case to case.

quote:

Do you weigh brass? If so, what are your tolerances, say, for the .270 in terms of acceptable wt. variances?

I generally buy Cases in Lots of 300-1000 cases with 500 being the norm. I do a full Case Prep on the entire Lot and then weight-sort them. Within a Lot that size, it is easy enough to get 12-60 cases that weigh the exact same amount at 15-20 different weights.

I select groups of cases in 9s, 15s, or 18s and really don't concern myself with 20.

The cases that are too light and too heavy are used for initial Pressure Ring Expansion data to see how they compare to previous Lots, but are not used for my actual Hunting Loads.

quote:

Do you always check your finished cartridge length from base to ogive?

No.

I first determing the Kiss-the-Lands distance for one specific bullet from a new box and think of it as a Set Up Bullet(SUB) and determine what that OCL is using the never improved upon Clean Rod method. Then I Seat the SUB to that OCL and snug-up the Jam Nut on the Seating Die. Then I remove the Seating Die from the Press, measure the entire Overall Die Length(ODL) and write that number on the Bullet Box.

Lets say the ODL is 3.050" and I want the bullets Seated 0.010" Off-the-Lands. I adjust the ODL to 3.040", screw it into the Press and begin Seating Bullets from that specific box. I don't waste my time doing any Ogive measurements at this point because from having done it in the past I realize if I Seat them with a slow steady stroke, the Ogive-to-Casehead distance will be the same on all of them.

Everytime I open a new box, I determine the ODL and write it on that specific box. If you choose not to do this, you will eventually get a box where the manufacturer has made a change which you will not be aware of and that will void all your previous Load Development.

quote:

Spin your stuff on a concentricity gauge? What are your acceptable tolerances here?

Don't do this at all. Since I Partial-Full Length Resize(P-FLR) all my cases to fit each rifle, Neck Concentricity is not something I give a second thought.

Best of luck to you.

Strong comment on not turning the necks. May I ask why?

No, no, no, and no.
Judge Sharpe

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Strong comment on not turning the necks. May I ask why?

Doc, Unless you are loading for a tight necked chamber that requires neck turning it's not worth doing. Cleaning up your necks by removing the bare minimum of material won't hurt anything but if you are shooting a standard chamber and overdo it just a hair you will ruin your cases. It very quickly becomes to much of a good thing. Jim

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doc:
What depth do you trim your primer pockets to uniform them in large rifle?
I use a Lyman primer pocket uniformer which has a pre set stop collar but I'm usure what the measurement is but it's SAMMI specs I'm sure.
Do you turn your necks?

No. As already stated is useless unless you have a tight neck chamber and you can quickly ruin brass.

Do you measure each individual rifle's chamber length and trim brass accordingly to that rifle?

No I usually use the trim to length for that cal and work from there.


Do you weigh brass? If so, what are your tolerances, say, for the .270 in terms of acceptable wt. variances?

I have done this but not always. I use .2 grains +/- as tolerance


Do you always check your finished cartridge length from base to ogive?

I get my optimum seating depth during load developement and right it down for that bullet then once I get my die set I may check one every 5 to make sure that nothing has changed and always try to work the handle the same way each stroke.

Spin your stuff on a concentricity gauge? What are your acceptable tolerances here?
Yes and No. When doing long range shooting 400 plus yards I will spin them and try to keep it .003 and less variance. Someone suggested good dies and brass and they spoke true words. Bushing dies work great for eliminating runout. Lee collet dies do a great job of it also. Anything under 300 yards runout is not a big issue.[/QUOTE]

David Tubbs seems to know a bit about shooting. I watched on of his Sierra videos years ago and I recall him stating something like:

Neck turning is more important to accuracy than the small variances in powder charge, deburring, and primer pocket uniforming. The "hole inside a hole" or "concentric cone" is the key.

Therefore, I was just curious what you all had to say.

For under 400, I've never had a problem before, but I'm going to have a 1000 yard rifle soon and wanted to give it every chance possible.

I trim about .0005 from the neck when I do trim them. Haven't had a problem yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Doc:
Strong comment on not turning the necks. May I ask why?

Hey Doc, Sure.

Back in my youth I was fortunate enough to grow up around some extremely knowledgeable Reloaders. They were into every part of it including making their own Wildcats. Not having them made, making them. The last of the Elders died this summer and I sure miss all of them.

Anyway, they had me into Reaming Necks or "Thinnin" as defined by the local colloquialism. Back then our tools were a bit different than what is available today and it is very possible to go a bit too far or not quite far enough simply concerning the "length" of the cut. It is real easy to go too far and create a "thin spot" at the Neck/Shoulder transition and have Neck Separations. Or not get it cut back far enough and you have another type of variation in your cases.

The "depth" of the cut is another entire bag of worms. If you don't cut it deep enough then the Necks will Expand out of round (and they tend to do this ANYHOW). If you cut them too deep, then the Resizing Die won't "resize" the Neck.

And you can end up creating the dreaded "doughnut" on the inside of the Case at the Neck/Shoulder junction which is best to Ream out Internally. Of course, the Inside Diameter needs to be just so-so, or you won't cut the doughnut out, or over cut it. The Reamer needs to be a specific size and you have to adjust the amount of "resizing" to make it work just right. The best way to accomplish this is with the relatively new "Changeable Bushing Resizer Dies" so you can adjust the amount of Resizing for the situation - thus creating more variables.

All this takes time and if you do it "after" the weight sorting, then prehaps all the weights are skewed again. Maybe it doesn't matter at that point though.

Jim White(above) said it about as simple as I've ever seen it in print.
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I'm a firm believer in Partial-Full Length Resizing(P-FLR) because it tends to eliminate the variables that a lot of folks fret over. Since it "forces" the Case CenterLine to be in closer alignment with the Chamber CenterLine better and more consistently than any other Resizing Method, it is what I choose to do.

The really nice thing about it is anyone can try it "both ways" and see what works the best for them. Not putting down your choice to do Neck "Thinnin" and Neck Sizing, just saying I prefer something else.

Hey Doc,

Got a good thread going here. I always enjoy the case prep discussions best.

No. I gave up turning necks, couldn't get a good accurate system for doing it down

No. Like HC I use the Lee Case Length Gauge

No. Never have made the connection in my mind about what relationship a miniscule difference in weight of case would have to do with bullet flight

Yes. I check each bullet with the Stoney Point Comparator to get the same seating depth. I back up the seating die a smidgen before I seat each bullet and adjust it until each bullet has the same reading to the ogive

Sometimes. I used to chase it a lot but never saw the difference in accuracy between a .001" reading and a .004" reading, even after marking the high point, separating them according to readings, and loading them in the magazine with the high points all in the same place

Hey H C

quote:

I'm a firm believer in Partial-Full Length Resizing(P-FLR) because it tends to eliminate the variables that a lot of folks fret over. Since it "forces" the Case CenterLine to be in closer alignment with the Chamber CenterLine better and more consistently than any other Resizing Method, it is what I choose to do.

The really nice thing about it is anyone can try it "both ways" and see what works the best for them. Not putting down your choice to do Neck "Thinnin" and Neck Sizing, just saying I prefer something else.

do you consider using the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back (the same distance as you would with a FL sizer to PFLR) and then sizing the neck with a Lee Collet Die to be PFLR?

I think it is interesting myself...the case prep that is.

I learned back in 1990 that "this is the most critical aspect of your new hobby."

Despite our best efforts, it still never ceases to amaze me how "Joe" can go to the range with his factory Browning 300WM and Remington Safari 200 A Frames and print out a 1/2" consistently...Yes, REMINGTON brass.

And I'm confident that the flash holes were not deburred, primer pockets not uniform, and case length is variable. I know this because I've checked tons of factory stuff in the RCBS precision Mic and on a concentricity gauge.

Oh, well, to respond to the comment about brass wt. not making much difference in bullet flight, I think this is more important when shooting very long range (>500 yards).

But I will say this, I've been turning the outside of the case necks recently and weighing the brass, and I've achieved better groups than I've ever seen in many more loads and in almost every rifle. I still have my 7mm Rem Mag to go but the .06, 300 RUM, and all of the 270's are shooting better this year than last.

I should post some pictures of my targets.

I got into neck turning after watching (I think a David Tubb) video. I pretty much just did it for a 300 wby because I was buying rem brass and it was pretty beat up. I always thought I was making match grade brass out of a "sows ear". Alot of people proclaim that neck turning "hurts" accuracy in an average hunting rifle because there is now even more "looseness" in that factory chamber. Well, I too have come to the conclusion that neck turning is a good thing....not unbelievable but good. I get very good 300 yd groups out of my "jap" built 300 wby. All neck turned brass just "feels" the same from resizing to seating--exactly the same effort and I've come to believe the reason it helps is very consistant neck tension.

THAT BEING SAID....I have a friend with a couple weatherbies that I have been reloading for. He was very happy with my results but one day he picked up a box of factory premium ammo for his 300wby. I think it had 200 grain a-frams or maybe trophy bonded but it shoots so good in his gun he's never bothered me to load for that gun again. Plus the cost of the ammo is as cheap as I can buy components and put it together.

As many people say .....careful case prep certainly has to help but I've come to believe that the match of the bullet/powder charge to the barrel harmonics is about 95% of the equation in a hunting rifle.

quote:

do you consider using the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back (the same distance as you would with a FL sizer to PFLR) and then sizing the neck with a Lee Collet Die to be PFLR?

Hey Woods, It sounds like you are accomplishing the same end result, so I would say - yes indeed.

Plus, if you are using the Redding "Neck Bushing" Dies along with a Universal Decapper, then you have the option to adjust the neck tension and not be concerned with the Expander stretching the Necks out of square. Looks like a fine way to do it.

Whatever works for someone, I'm all for.
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Hey Doc, I see you just mentioned De-burring Flash Holes and I do that as part of the Case Prep too. Probably only really helps 1 out of 100, but I do it so they are all as close to exactly alike as possible.

I can also recommend "Polishing" the Case-mouth after Trimming, Chamfering and Deburring. Just stick an old 22 Bore Brush into a non-powered handle and wrap the Brush with "0000SteelWool". Stick it in the Case-mouth and give it a couple of turns to eliminate tiny burrs inside the Mouth. Look at it with an eye-loop and you can see what I'm talking about. Seems to eliminate "some" fliers for me.
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The best advice I can offer is to develop a mind set where you seek to get everything in your Load Development Process exactly alike.

Variables increase groups.

I went to the range over the weekend. Temp was 73. Had to break in a new Lilja bbl on my Rem 270, plus see what it likes. I also took my brother's 270 (PacNor bbl) out. We'll be in WY at the end of Sept for antelope and we wanted to try something new. Oh, I also took out the old Ruger 270 (Hart bbl).

We will be shooting the new Barnes TSX 110 grain. The Pacnor bbl printed up extraordinary groups of 5 using IMR4350. I never even tried the other powders. Didn't have to.

The Hart bbl shot one of my all time best using Reloder 19, which it also uses with the 130 TSX. This time, 59.0 grains of the stuff made one iddy biddy hole with 3 shots. I also was "in the mode" so to speak. It was just a good day to shoot. I was fortunate enough to have no wind and everything just felt right while squeezing the trigger.

The new Lilja bbl: Well, I loaded up some Hornady SST's in 130 grain, some Nos. BT's in 150. I used the Nosler manual's best loads for the 150's. I only tried H4350, and even up to the max load, 52.0 grains, I still achieved 1/2" groups, 3 times in a row. The SST's shot well too but with IMR4350. The more powder, the tighter the group.

I may just stick with the 150 Btip at 52.0 grains of the H4350 because it shot so well. I think it will work fine on antelope. Plus it's only going 2700fps. I don't recall ever loading the Btips to extreme velocities and thus have had great success with them.

But, I'm more inclined to use the flat shooting 110 TSX boat tail with the Re19. I've never killed anything with that bullet. Decisions.

Oh well, I always take a couple of rifles on a hunt anyway.

Next up at the range is the 130 Swift Scirocco. I'm trying some Re22, Re19, and H4831SC, Lapua brass (necked down from .06).

But, all this rain and wind from the hurricane is disrupting my range time.

Hey Doc, Sounds like some extremely fine shooting. Best of luck on the Hunt.

Hey H C


quote:
I'm a firm believer in Partial-Full Length Resizing(P-FLR) .


do you consider using the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back (the same distance as you would with a FL sizer to PFLR) and then sizing the neck with a Lee Collet Die to be PFLR? I prefer Partial resizing not moving the shoulder.I use now the headspace gauge,on fireformed cases there is a difference of.001"and when I resize .001"also,using the headspace gauge is the only way I have found to estimate "backing up the shoulder".Partial resizing vs P-FLR are very close,without Headspace gauge"I though I was PR but in reality I was P_FLR,my mistake (backing the shoulder .002").If a buy a new rifle I will consider using body die,neck collet die(less drag ),a good seater is very important,a fine one wont add runout...

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

quote:

do you consider using the Redding Body Die to push the shoulder back (the same distance as you would with a FL sizer to PFLR) and then sizing the neck with a Lee Collet Die to be PFLR?

Hey Woods, It sounds like you are accomplishing the same end result, so I would say - yes indeed.

Plus, if you are using the Redding "Neck Bushing" Dies along with a Universal Decapper, then you have the option to adjust the neck tension and not be concerned with the Expander stretching the Necks out of square. Looks like a fine way to do it.

HC

No, I am not using the Redding Bushing Die. I am using a Universal decapper, a Redding Body die, and a Lee Collet Neck Sizer. No more expanders for me, I like the Collet Dies.

Had very bad luck with the Redding Bushing Die. Paid a fortune for it and the runout was .007" +. Turned me off.

Like rejpelly, I use the Stoney Point Head and Shoulders gauge to set my shoulder back within .0005" to .001" when the case get tight to chamber.

Woods and Hotcore, without your input(info),I dont think I will stick around both of you.I use now a headspace gauge,when I Partial full lengh case( not moving the shoulder),fireformed cases are .001"loger when I resize them,if I am right,Hotcore when you uuse P-FLR sizing,backing up the shoulder by .002",fisrt one have to consider how your sizing diewill resize on your case,meaning ,I get .001"longer ,if I quote right,is not backing .002"but really .003"...

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:
Woods and Hotcore, without your input(info),I dont think I will stick around both of you.I use now a headspace gauge,when I Partial full lengh case( not moving the shoulder),fireformed cases are .001"loger when I resize them,if I am right,Hotcore when you uuse P-FLR sizing,backing up the shoulder by .002",fisrt one have to consider how your sizing diewill resize on your case,meaning ,I get .001"longer ,if I quote right,is not backing .002"but really .003"...

Hey rejpelly, I do believe Woods is doing his Resizing closer to what you are doing than I am. So, I'll have to let the two of you sort out those questions because I just don't have any "experience" doing it the way you all are. Anything I could say about it would be guessing.

I don't use the Stoney Point tool even though I tried to a long time ago. If you are having good luck with it - great. Just not for me.

Bottom line is this, using whatever method you choose to Resize the Case, as long as the bolt closes with a bit of resistance on a resized case, that should force the two important CenterLines closer together. Doing that seems to nullify some of the accuracy degrading things such as "Run Out".

Of course if you are using the firearm in Dangerous Game territory, then Full Length Resizing is always the best for your actual Hunting Loads to prevent getting the action bound up with a tiny spec of dirt when the firearm is seriously needed.

Best of luck to you.

Partial resizing,P-FLR,FLR are so close probably within.004"differance,concerning the body die method I dont know but if it follows the others three,the four methods will"kick in" within .004".The only way to be sure is to use the headapace gauge(stoney point).I use partial resizing not working the shoulder,going to P-FLR I adjust the sizer for .002",to go FLR,I adjust .004"(backing up the shoulder.004").Without using the headspace gauge I dont think one can know if he is really using Partial resizing,P-FLR or FLR.(1/18 turn of the die is .004).I set up my Rcbs sizer what RCBS said about setting this one,1/4 dowm after die have made contact,using the headspace gauge I got.014"of headspace,I also use lawers of scotch tape,(.016").Headspace how much is secure?

rejpelly

You are right (IMHO ). When using the Body Die I can gauge the change in shoulder position within .0005" with the St Pt Head & Shoulders Gauge. Have to go real slow and adjust the die very small amounts. If not, all of a sudden the shoulder is pushed back .003" and the case is loose.

I also have the rifle out and am chambering the case to try to gauge the amount of "crush fit". With some rifles this is hard because the locking lugs are tighter and the bolt is naturally hard to rotate closed. Without the Stoney Point I don't think I could do as good a job.

Now, what I do different is that for the first few reloading I neck size only using the Lee Collet Die and only go through the Body Die when I have to.

Have you tried putting a washer around the case on top of the shell holder when using the Collet Die? It leaves a portion of the neck next to the shoulder chamber size. Seems like it helps to center the neck in the chamber but may be unnecessary when P-FLR is used. Only do that on long necked cases like the 270 and 30-06.

Hi, IMHO The only I can get a collet die for the.338RUM(QUITE A KICKER) is ordering a custom one,Lee said takes at least three months,I will not be able to use it before next year,I will be winter here,I cannot shoot during Winter,sorry I cannot give any info,I am interesting to try something new.Using the (Stoney point) headspace gauge( everyone reloading should have one)I use with the ANVIL base on the other blade of the caliber,I turn around the case couple of times,case has a tendancy to center by itself(precision(.0002")depends on the pressure you use on the caliper,using the headspace gauge with the caliper blade,honestly I was not able to get a acceptable reading ,too much differance( that remember me of someone).Bullet comparator if I use the anvil base,the round is much more difficult to center itself,the only I can get a good reding is to "print marks" on the bullet,otherwise I cannot say the precision.I will have to find a way to be more precise(precision right now("001").I have some difficulty to express correctly in Shakespare language.Take care ...Rejean.

quote:

Originally posted by rejpelly:
...I have some difficulty to express correctly in Shakespare language.Take care ...Rejean.

Hey Rejean, That would also be true for most of us.

You are doing fine. We understand what you are saying.

Best of luck to you.

HOTCORE(IMHO ),when it comes technical "things"usually it becmomes very quiet;how comes I am just an amateur in prep case;I should get a good deal of out of common sens...technical I hope it doesnt not mean ,the info is "out there"...