Hello
Im working on light load Ruger no1 450/400NE.3". I cast 270gr gc lead bullet, powder coated. Seyfreid calls for 42g h4198 and 10gr dacron. The 10gr of dacron is a much larger mass of the material than I expected. Ive never used a filler of any kind before. I found a couple references to this load online that elaborate by suggesting that you must pack the material in the case firmly over the powder. Maybe its a nitro express thing, but any info I see for traditional cases such as 45-70 gov state do not pack it in firmly. It seems that foam packing is now common in NE cases so packing the dacron basically creates a foamlike substrate.
Anybody here using the Seyfreid nitro for black alternate loads. If I had 5744 powder, I would not even bother with it. I appreciate insights into this load. I know its by the books to load with published data at max power with 400gr bullet. My post is seeking alternatives from the handloaders.

Fillers like Dacron/polyfil must be used with caution. When using Dacron in a large, straight tapered case, it's my opinion the filler should not be tightly packed down on the powder, but just inserted into the case to occupy the space between the powder and bullet. When a small wad of dacron is tamped down on the powder leaving space between it and the bullet in a straight case it is believed the wad of Dacron becomes a projectile itself and will cause a ring in the chamber. I cannot confirm the secondary projectile theory, but I do know I witnessed a shooter ring a chamber on a barrel I had just installed by shooting a small ball of Dacron over a light charge of powder in a .32-40. The ring formed in less than 5 shots and the barrel had to be set back and re-chambered.

Back in the dark ages of the 1960s when I started to reload, I followed the advice in gun mags and would insert a small ball of dacron over very light charges for .30-06 cast loads and shot hundreds of them without damage.

5744 works great in my .450/400x3" with cast bullets. Lacking that, I might try backer rod cut to length to fit between the powder and bullet, but this might not be 100% effective since the case is bottle necked.

I tried dacron in a .450 x 3 1/4" rifle in order to duplicate a nitro-for-black loading. Using enough dacron to fill the case without compacting it created a virtual snow storm of dacron shreds upon firing.

Sorry I could not be more definitive.

Thanks. Sounds definitive enough for me. Im waiting on 5744. Just too many variables and insufficient word of mouth data. Thank you.

Look in Graham Wright’s book and use a Nitro for Black load. I shoot a 450/400 3.25” with a 265 grain lead bullet. I’m using IMR 4198. I’ve used Dacron or backer rod as a filler. The Dacron is a PIA to stuff in the case.

Ken

10grains of Dacron is like a giant hand full.
my money is on it being like 1grain which is the size of your thumb from the joint to the tip.

personally I'd just use something simple like 10grs of Unique, or 24grs of 2400.
but it's your powder.

The 10 grains is a lot. Maybe they have a different kind than I do. Im using documented load published by Ross Seyfreid. Another guy suggests 12grains of dacron.

I have not seen anybody else suggest unique or 2400. I have both for handguns. Have you used these loads?

I don't know what velocity you are aiming for in a light load for your 450/400 3" but for a light load in my Mauser 404 Jeffery with 400gr GC cast bullets I am using 22.0grs Vectan AS, or the same charge of Red Dot, for a velocity of 1400fps. No filler used for this loading which is very pleasant and accurate, up to the same POI too as factory ammo.

I switched over to Vectan AS powder, which I have a good supply of, once I used up a small trial sample of Red Dot given to me by another 404 owner who developed the load.

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I don't know what velocity you are aiming for in a light load for your 450/400 3" but for a light load in my Mauser 404 Jeffery with 400gr GC cast bullets I am using 22.0grs Vectan AS, or the same charge of Red Dot, for a velocity of 1400fps. No filler used for this loading which is very pleasant and accurate, up to the same POI too as factory ammo.

I switched over to Vectan AS powder, which I have a good supply of, once I used up a small trial sample of Red Dot given to me by another 404 owner who developed the load.

I have a lot of Red Dot. Im just always worried about using the fast handgun powders in large cases. But Im interested in this load. Thank you.

quote:

…backer rod cut to length to fit between the powder and bullet, but this might not be 100% effective since the case is bottle necked.

I use H4198 with 1/2” backer rod for filler.
This in a Ruger No.1 and my W.R. falling block have worked great.
Also, since you are powder coating a gas checked bullet, you can slowly work up to the high end of reduced loads and choose to stop wherever you like.

I’d be nervous with that much Dacron in a bottleneck. I use to use Dacron for fillers but have switched a good decade ago to backer rod. One for pressure reduction, and two for a lot less mess when shooting, and three a lot easier to load.

quote:

Originally posted by McKay:
I’d be nervous with that much Dacron in a bottleneck. I use to use Dacron for fillers but have switched a good decade ago to backer rod. One for pressure reduction, and two for a lot less mess when shooting, and three a lot easier to load.

Thanks. Im going to look into backer rod.

IMR TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL
As noted ni the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets ni pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used ni both rifle and pistol applications:
1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures wil be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1by .7), and that si your starting load.
3) Start with this beginning load and work up ot your maximum charge, al the while searching for hte most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

quote:

Originally posted by Zephyr:
IMR TRAIL BOSS® REDUCED LOADS FOR RIFLE AND PISTOL
As noted ni the powder description section, Trail Boss was designed primarily for reduced loads using lead bullets ni pistol cartridges. However, Trail Boss offers superb versatility in rifle cartridges producing reduced loads using lead or jacketed bullets. These reduced loads make firing such cartridges as the 300 Winchester Magnum or even the 458 Winchester Magnum pure fun!
Listed below we show a few examples of such loads throughout the Reloading Data Center, but the fun doesn't stop there. If you don't see Trail Boss data for your favorite cartridge we have a formula for developing loads for all cartridges and it's simple to follow. This formula may be used ni both rifle and pistol applications:
1) Find where the base of the bullet to be loaded is located in the case and make a mark on the outside of the case at this location. Then fill the case to that mark with Trail Boss, pour into the scale pan and weigh. This is your maximum load. Pressures wil be below the maximum allowed for this cartridge and perfectly safe to use!
2) Take 70% of this powder charge weight (multiply the maximum load from step 1by .7), and that si your starting load.
3) Start with this beginning load and work up ot your maximum charge, al the while searching for hte most accurate reduced load. Once found, the fun begins!

Trail boss is great. I have used it quite a bit. Looking for higher fps than what it offers. And I dont think Trail Boss is currently being produced.

quote:

Originally posted by ProfessorChanceTX:

quote:

Originally posted by eagle27:
I don't know what velocity you are aiming for in a light load for your 450/400 3" but for a light load in my Mauser 404 Jeffery with 400gr GC cast bullets I am using 22.0grs Vectan AS, or the same charge of Red Dot, for a velocity of 1400fps. No filler used for this loading which is very pleasant and accurate, up to the same POI too as factory ammo.

I switched over to Vectan AS powder, which I have a good supply of, once I used up a small trial sample of Red Dot given to me by another 404 owner who developed the load.

I have a lot of Red Dot. Im just always worried about using the fast handgun powders in large cases. But Im interested in this load. Thank you.

Red Dot and AS powders are also shotgun powders. Information from Vectan indicates that their AS powder is also suitable for some cast bullet loads. For the 450/400 3" I would probably start at 20.0grs Red Dot.

The image below is of the grouping at 50m I can get from my Red Dot or Vectan AS load in my 404. The second image is of the 400gr cast bullet used.

the above was published use to be found on the IMR Web Site

I tried Seyfreids 42gr 4198 with 10gr dacron behind 270gr pc gc lead bullet. At 100yds shoots same POI as Hornady dgs 400gr load. Not as accurate as I want but not terrible. No keyholing or brass issues. The dacron comes out as a cloud of white fibers.

Yes, the Dacron leaves pieces on the range. It can also affect the readings on the chronograph. As Huvius stated, you can use 1/2” backer rod as a substitute. In my 450/400 3.25” load, I use two 1” long pieces.

Ken

I had great luck w 5744 and 300 grain Hornady bullets. Bob

Does anyone use H4895 (AR2206H) for such purposes? They claim you can load down to 60 per cent of the maximum loads for calibres where that powder is listed, though Graeme Wright doesn't seem to give it a guernsey.

I've only used it in the 270WSM but did not feel the need for filler there. I do reload for my Heym .450/.400 but have not loaded back in that way as it probably doesn't work in doubles.

The traditional way of subloading double rifles has been to use the amount of the powder that degulates the standard projectiles with bullets three-quarters the weight - and this may not require a filler at all.