How much do you think group size is effected by removing the rifle from the bags after each shot and then replacing.

Lightweight front rest and bag, fore end held by shooter, sporter weight rifle with free floated barrel, rear bag.

Currently testing the return to zero of my H&H takedown system and want to try and damp out the repositioning on the bags variable.

1894...if you are holding the rifle in your hand witht your hand on the rest....not a bit of difference.

Most benchrest shooters solve this problem by a shooting technique called "free recoil". They set their rifles up on really solid front and rear rests (to the point where they use what they call heavy sand as opposed to regular sand) in both the front and rear bags. Their rifles are then set up so that when fired they will recoil straight back and all they need to do to "return to battery" is to push them forward. the front rest will typically have a "stop" on it to show the rifle is in the same position. The shooters will put talc on the bags and friction free tape on the bottom of their stocks to get them to move the same each way etc..........

but the main thing is they don't touch their rifles, except for the 2 ounce trigger, when they shoot so the rifle will recoil freely and hopefully the same each time.

Maybe the next rage in the BR circles should be "remote control triggers..."

This would completely remove human error and persuasion from the whole equation. The rifle "operator" could simply align the sights, and then press a button on an infrared remote control and BLAM!

These guys crack me up!

Be a rifleman dammit!

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan, that's basically what the rail guns in "unlimited" are...... FWIW, Dutch.

Thanks, Dutch...

So what you're basically saying is that even in being deliberately facetious I still ended up one step behind the BR crowd's reality? ...

I'll bet a man could sell a boat load of pocket protectors and Star Trek memorabilia at such an event!


Dan

Dan,
I'm more than a little surprised at your attitude about benchrest shooters after reading some of your other posts. If it wasn't for the benchrest community the current crop of short magnums wouldn't even be on the drawing boards yet. Benchresters have known for 30 years that short and fat is where its at when it comes to accurate and efficient cartridges as evidenced by the 22ppc, 6ppc and the whole BR series of cartridges. Dutch, if you think its just a matter of punching the trigger on a rail gun I would invite you to invest $2500.00 or $3000.00 in a rail and set a new worlds record. Theres a lot more to a rail than meets the eye.
Dan FYI electronic triggers were tried years ago and abandoned. They are not an advantage.
Regardless of the equipment in benchrest whether it be L.Varmint, H.Varmint, Sporter or unlimited there still has be a loose nut behind the wheel driving the thing and trust me, it ain't as easy as it looks. Jim

[ 11-17-2002, 06:21: Message edited by: Lightnin ]

1894,
If you are shooting a sporter weight rifle on the setup you described then DB Bill answered your question perfectly. Excellent answer DB. Jim

I'm sorry to have offended a comrade here... And I mean that, Lightnin'...

Certainly benchrest has its place. But I do think it is one of the more impractical of the shooting sports. But no more impractical than IPSC pistol shooting, for instance. (Who would carry one of those things for self defense? )

I liken these branches of the shooting sports to drag racing. And I do like drag racing! It's just that it's more fun than practical, but hell, everything doesn't have to be practical--I know...
<Somebody said "Get a life, Dan!">

My biggest problem with many in the benchrest shooting field is their incredulity of what modern (and even some not so modern) factory rifles are capable of doing. I went round and round with a character over at shooters.com when I told him I had a Savage factory barreled rifle that consistent shot .3 MOA or better. He simply couldn't believe it, and offered as proof that I was lying a screen-length list of gear that he believed was necessary to have in advance of getting a rifle to perform so well.

Later, when word got around of 1/4 MOA Savage rifles winning matches against much more expensive rigs, he ammended his stance to say that 1/4 MOA wasn't good enough to win a real benchrest match, and further pointed out that there was no way that a factory Savage would aggregate that well for 25 rounds.

Never mind the fact that I had never said that my rifle could win a benchrest match, or could aggregate as well as his rifle. All I had said was that it would consistently shoot .3's. And it does...

Mean guys! (Not you, Lightnin') but too many of those BR guys a meaner than hell! ...

I'm more of a pragmatist where riflery is concerned. I see the rifle as a very necessary tool for survival in hard times, and certainly necessary for the defense of liberty in harder times. Benchrest rifles would serve in these roles about as well as a top fuel eliminator would get the groceries and drop the kids off at school...

Two of my most accurate rifles are my 30-06 and my 270. Both of these sporter barreled rifles, when properly fed and fired, will put the first three shots into 1/2 MOA or better. I stopped saving the targets from the Remington 700 30-06 with three shots overlapping at 100 yards. My own belief (unpopular, but I'm on a one man campaign to prove it!) is that the reason short, fat cartridges seem to perform better on the target range is that their lesser recoil allows for steadier trigger men. I don't believe that the .308 has any inherent accuracy advantages over the 30-06. This notion sprung up in the days when the 30-06 was being loaded with low load density powders like 4895. Load it with a stiff charge of 4350 and it'll hang right with a .308.

I don't dispute that benchrest has been a great proving ground for some of the better innovations in riflery, and to that end, it's a worthy sport. But many if not most of the rituals and methods of getting those tiny clusters on paper don't lend themselves to practical riflery much at all, in my opinion.

One of the last informal shoots I attended hosted a couple of folks who were firing minature cannons loaded with 12 ounce soda cans. It was fun to watch--entertaining as hell to be honest--but served no real purpose beyond that. I think the benchrest remote fired rail guns might (and I said "might," okay? ) fall into that same category...

Dan Newberry
green 788

Dan - I hear what you are saying about benchresters and I know that you aren't seriously trying to cut them in any way. And sure they take things to the ultimate extreme.
But that said, I think taking things to the extreme is sort of what benchrest shooting is all about. I dabbled with it years ago, long enough to find out I wasn't worth a flip, didn't have the patience OR the equipment...or really the desire.

But my hat is off to the benchrest shooters. Sure most of their stuff is impractical as hell. But they aren't TRYING to be practical. "Practicality" isn't what benchrest shooting is all about. And Dan, let me say that I personally preach practical guns only. (So I am much more like you than a BR shooter.)

Anyway, what I want to get out is that all shooters owe a hell of a debt to the benchrest crowd. To me, these are the shooting guys with white lab coats and pocket calculators. And you probably could sell a lot of pocket protectors at a benchrest match. But these guys are perfecting the designs, techniques and equipment that the rest of us will be shooting years from now. A hell of a lot of what we have today came from the BR matches of yesterday and it will always be that way. I think BR matches are little more than the proving grounds for most of our ideas.

Once they have proven it, Dan, then guys like you and me hammer it into more practical channels. We both need each other IMHO. Well, maybe we need them more than they need us.

Dan,
I wasn't offended at all. It was just like I said I was a little surprised. I know you didn't mean to offend and I didn't take it that way. Like Pecos said we all need each other in one way or another. Jim

Well, I guess I can grant you that much, Pecos and Lightnin'...

I do agree that modern riflery has benefitted in many ways from benchrest shooting. We know more about things such as lock time, atmospheric effects on different powders, barrel grooving patterns and twist rates, et al... I will concede that, if not for the work done in benchrest circles, I wouldn't be enjoying the level of accuracy that I do from my practical rifles.

That said, though, I do hang around some long range shooting forums such as www.snipershide.com , and it seems to me that folks in the long range crowd are slowly but surely coming full circle, back to standard, time tested cartridges, and away from the oddball wildcats such as the 6.5/284.

There was a brief trend which had folks necking the 284 up to 30 caliber, but now they're looking into 28 caliber. You read right twenty-eight caliber! The damned 284 all over again! Maybe they'll at least change the twist rate to handle the 175 grain bullets...

As I mentioned earlier, I don't believe that there was anything that needed fixing about the 30-06, and that it is as good a 1000 yard cartridge as the .308--perhaps a bit better since it can drive the heavier bullets faster.

Likewise, with all of the 6.5 mm hubbub, the 108 year old 6.5 x 55 Swedish Mauser cartridge is beginning to get its nose under the tent flap--case being that the 6.5/284 and the 6.5-06 are too hard on barrels. The 6.5 x 55 can do 1000 yards and better with it "eyes closed!" This vetran cartridge has been quietly and politely watching the tinkerers from the sidelines, waiting its turn to take a crack at the job.

So, I'm generally careful of jumping on bandwagons of cutting edge "eggheadery," if I may coin such a word. Often times one may end up trekking to the north pole from Akaska by way of Antarctica!

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

[ 11-18-2002, 00:09: Message edited by: green 788 ]

Dan - Good comments and I agree with you. Maybe it's just because I've become a card carrying member of the Old Farts Club...but you're exactly right about a lot of the old cartridges.
They were exceptional then and they still are and after dang near 100 years of trying...nobody has been able to improve on them enough to brag about. If at all when you consider all the factors. And that's pretty amazing!

The old /06 is STILL number #1 and it just delights me to see things like the 6.5 bouncing back as well. There are a LOT of the old cartridges coming back as strong or stronger than ever...and that's great.

The benchrest boys are an important part of our group...and of course a lot of them have a hunting side to their shooting as well!

I think a lot of this gun stuff is like a pendulum. It swings back and forth from limit to limit...and when it's near the center is when it's the best. Extremes are always wacky.

Good hunting!

Interesting comments about Benchrest shooters. I’ll throw in my .02:

I'm not a competitive BR shooter, but I'l tell you that what I learned from their craft is priceless.

One day years ago, while at the range with my used M700 22-250, I fell into conversation with a few guys who were there doing load testing with their varmint rigs. They were not active competitors, but they were serious about their rifle performance. Turned out they all make trips together varmint hunting up in northern PA, sometimes shooting at distances that I won't recount because most folks would disbelieve. A better bunch of guys you'll be hard pressed to find. They welcomed me into their group, and I made some great new friends. Within a year 1/2, I was up there with them shooting at woodchucks, crows, etc.

Some guys bring .17 cal rifles, and hunt the 200 – 300 yd fields, while for others bigger cals (280 Ackley, 7 mag, etc ) are preferred due to the distances at the longer shooting locales. Wildcats are not uncommon. Some of the rifles have been to the same shops at which the BR shooters get their “space guns” built. For some of the guys loading is done with the same obsessive attention to detail as the BR competitors. Two rifles and MANY DOLLARS after meeting this bunch, I was shooting a 40X in 7 Rem mag with muzzle brake, leupold Mark IV scope, and spending hours fussing over everything from brass prep to shooting technique. The result was a rifle that is capable of better groups than I can usually deliver, though I have gotten close to 1/4 inch groups on a day at the bench when I did my part and the wind was nil. The rifle/ammo combination performs so well that it’s clearly my fault if the shot misses.

The point of my rambling...... I benefited greatly from the rifle tuning and ammo loading knowledge borrowed from the BR crowd, just as the auto racing teams generate advances that eventually make their way into your car on the showroom floor.

Regards,

DJ

DB Bill,

Many thanks. Actualy I think it makes a tiny difference to me, no doubt because of my poor technique.

Dammit Hotcore I can't find fault with anything you said!

Good points, all... Where in the world have you been keeping yourself?

Dan

Guys,
I've enjoyed this thread, but am left with a question. When you refer to rail guns, are you referring to linear motors or just referring to them for comparison? If the BR folks are using rail guns I want to see one.
Gene

Gene - Here is the best picture I can find of my old "rail gun." Sorry for the quality of photo.
That's me up on the barrel, 2nd guy from the muzzle with a silly grin on my face.

Hotcore,
I too must agree with everything you said. Especially your comments about caffeine. Its hard to convince someone how much an extra cup of mud will effect your eyesight and perception. Those damn swivel studs will make your shot go high every time if you allow the front one to contact the bag not to mention what it does to your rest.
Good to see you posting again. Jim

Mats,

Thanks for the invitation, but I don't think I could ever get excited over such a sport.

Here is my current passion:

Shooting your country's incredible bolt action military Mausers.

I have two stock M96's, both CG's, and one Oberndorf M38. I love the M38 Oby, but the Carl Gustav's are put together better--fit, finish, etc. Sorry, Oby fans, but that is the case with my rifles.

All three are unbelievably accurate with the issue iron sights. I won't mention group sizes for fear of being laughed off the board (and I'm sure Hotcore is hiding in the shadows just looking for a reason to stick a fork in me so I gotta be careful )...

In very rapid fashion, I've decided that the 6.5 x 55 Swede is my favorite rifle cartridge, and the M96's my favorite rifles to shoot. Folks who haven't spent any field time with these fine rifles don't know what they're missing...

If I recall my reading correctly, Hitler commented during his attempts to take over Europe that he was not confident enough to take on Sweden, due mostly to the number and quality of the riflemen in Sweden's ranks.

Okay, okay, I'll say this: I can hit a grapefruit about 3 out of 4 times at 400 meters with my 1912 CG unissued M96, firing prone from sandbags, and yes, using the standard issue iron sights.

And that's what excites me...

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

How can the front swivel stud effect things if the barrel is free floated and it doesn't ever touch it (verified as not the faintest mark)?

Reason I ask is I have to have the front rest and bag forward and thus touching in order to hold the fore end. If the forend is not held the groups are appalling in all my 8lb sporters.

The sling swivel will drag over the front rest in an inconsistent manner, in most cases. If it bumps the bag hard on one shot, and less so on the next shot, it causes a difference in the recoil arc, thus changing the point in space where the bullet is released.

For pracical applications, you won't notice this effect. You certainly won't notice it when firing from the sitting or standing positions.

I've had my best luck by balancing the rifle over the front bag. It is my belief (and I figgered this out all by myself--dammit! ) that if you place the front rest too far forward, you can actually induce a "bow" the the receiver and stock, and this can cause minor accuracy problems. (Minor defined as a 1/2 MOA group that might have gone to 1/4).

For my part, I don't like to use any equipment from the bench that I wouldn't have available to me in the field. If we come to depend on such equipment, we'll find ourselves handicapped in practical situations.

Take care,

Dan Newberry
green 788

Just to get to the core of your question, the difference would be very little and have no effect on your zero within reason...One should apply good bench rest practices up to a point...but that I mean try to keep every shot position the same or close to the same...Final sight in with hand under the forearm is what I do...

But mostly don't get sucked up into goblegoop or technical garbage...it only confuses the issues and serves little purpose on hunting rifles...