I was under the impression that all 6mmPPC brass whether new or fireformed has a small primer pocker and small primer hole.

However the 6mmPPC brass which Midway is offering showes their(Silver State Armory)brass uses a large primer.

I Emailed Midway and they stated their supplier stated large primer is to be used.Midway apparently does not have any on hand to inspect.

I am new at this and would appreciate your comments.

Beryl

Beryl it is possible that a large primer pocket is in that brass as it is based upon the 7.62 x 39 case. Winchester uses a large pocket and Remington a small one. Most European cases are small pocket for the PPC dedicated brass.

I hope that helps and welcome to the site.

quote:

Originally posted by Beryl:
the 6mmPPC brass which Midway is offering showes their(Silver State Armory)brass uses a large primer.

I Emailed Midway and they stated their supplier stated large primer is to be used.Midway apparently does not have any on hand to inspect.

Beryl

That's really interesting news. I know a very few BR competitors who make their PPC cases from 7.62x39 brass intentionally to get cases with the large primer pocket. This new Midway brass might save them a TON of work.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Beryl:
the 6mmPPC brass which Midway is offering showes their(Silver State Armory)brass uses a large primer.

I Emailed Midway and they stated their supplier stated large primer is to be used.Midway apparently does not have any on hand to inspect.

Beryl

That's really interesting news. I know a very few BR competitors who make their PPC cases from 7.62x39 brass intentionally to get cases with the large primer pocket. This new Midway brass might save them a TON of work.

I'm sorry but WHAT? 99 percent of all BR shooters use Lapua 220 russian brass. The other 1 percent use Norma 6ppc brass. None of them open the primer pocket to use a LR primer. The case has a 30 grain capacity, and thats with a long drop tube and a very sllloooowww drop. The small primer pocket and flash hole are two of the main reasons why the 6ppc dominates BR shooting.

Thanks for the responses.Pointblanks comment about the small primer pocket pocket and flashhole was what I had read everywhere and that is why asked.

Beryl

Five years later, and I am STILL trying to get my 220 Russian Lapua brass to shoot as well as reformed Winchester 7.62x39 brass did. That stuff just "hummed". Never been able to duplicate it FWIW, Dutch.

Pointblank, I still have 400 virgin Sako 220 Russian cases brought from Lester Bruno back in the early 80's when I was working on the first prototype factory 6PPC from Sako. Now those are desirable cases...

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Beryl:
the 6mmPPC brass which Midway is offering showes their(Silver State Armory)brass uses a large primer.

I Emailed Midway and they stated their supplier stated large primer is to be used.Midway apparently does not have any on hand to inspect.

Beryl

That's really interesting news. I know a very few BR competitors who make their PPC cases from 7.62x39 brass intentionally to get cases with the large primer pocket. This new Midway brass might save them a TON of work.

I'm sorry but WHAT? 99 percent of all BR shooters use Lapua 220 russian brass. The other 1 percent use Norma 6ppc brass. None of them open the primer pocket to use a LR primer. The case has a 30 grain capacity, and thats with a long drop tube and a very sllloooowww drop. The small primer pocket and flash hole are two of the main reasons why the 6ppc dominates BR shooting.

That is the people YOU know, and does represent the great bulk of benchrest shooters. BUT, I DO happen to know several personally, who live in this immediate area, and who INTENTIONALLY MAKE BRASS FOR THEIR 6 PPCs from Winchester 7.62x39 brass because they like the large primer pocket.

They even convinced me to try it once back in about '95 or '96. I saw no particular advantage to it, and found it a lot of extra, unnecessary work, so I only tried it a couple of months, then went back to .220 Russky brass.

That you don't happen to know them does not make their choosing to do it untrue.

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Pointblank, I still have 400 virgin Sako 220 Russian cases brought from Lester Bruno back in the early 80's when I was working on the first prototype factory 6PPC from Sako. Now those are desirable cases...

Since this brass hasn't been available for many years, I'm not sure why it would be relevant. Yes it is excellent brass, but brass don't last forever and most shooters like a consistent supply of quality brass.

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by Alberta Canuck:

quote:

Originally posted by Beryl:
the 6mmPPC brass which Midway is offering showes their(Silver State Armory)brass uses a large primer.

I Emailed Midway and they stated their supplier stated large primer is to be used.Midway apparently does not have any on hand to inspect.

Beryl

That's really interesting news. I know a very few BR competitors who make their PPC cases from 7.62x39 brass intentionally to get cases with the large primer pocket. This new Midway brass might save them a TON of work.

I'm sorry but WHAT? 99 percent of all BR shooters use Lapua 220 russian brass. The other 1 percent use Norma 6ppc brass. None of them open the primer pocket to use a LR primer. The case has a 30 grain capacity, and thats with a long drop tube and a very sllloooowww drop. The small primer pocket and flash hole are two of the main reasons why the 6ppc dominates BR shooting.

That is the people YOU know, and represents the great bulk of benchrest shooters. BUT, I DO happen to know several personally, who live in this immediate area, and who INTENTIONALLY MAKE BRASS FOR THEIR 6 PPCs from 7.62x39 brass because they like the large primer pocket.

They even convinced me to try it once back in about '95 or '96. I saw no particular advantage to it, and found it a lot of extra, unnecessary work, so I only tried it a couple of months, then went back to .220 Russky brass.

The fact that you don't happen to know them does not make that untrue.

I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't believe you. That however doesn't change the fact that almost all the BR shooters are using Lapua 220 brass. There is a very good reason for this, and don't you think that everyone would use the 7.62 brass if it were the better option? After all, br shooters spare nothing in the pursuit of small aggs.

My experience tells me the only reason that some use the 7.62 X 39 brass is that it is cheaper. Tests have shown that the small primer pockets produce better accuracy. The Army had a run of 308 brass done with the small primer pickets and this ammo was used as match ammo.

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:
I didn't mean to make it sound like I didn't believe you. That however doesn't change the fact that almost all the BR shooters are using Lapua 220 brass.

There is a very good reason for this, and don't you think that everyone would use the 7.62 brass if it were the better option? After all, what BR shooters spare nothing in the pursuit of small aggs.

Well, as Nixon once said ("to be perfectly clear"), I never suggested that large primer pockets were the best way to go...just that I found it interesting to see the new brass with large pockets because it would save them some work.

While on the subject, though, I am not at all 100% convinced that the small primer pocket and small flash hole are what make the 6 PPC superior right now, regardless what the accepted current "knowledge", or cartridge, is.

I suspect that 20-odd years of load development and refinement of everything about the PPC are much of what makes the PPC rounds dominant.

Another reason for PPC dominance, I suspect, is that Benchresters, as you may or may not agree, tend to go for the most part with whatever they saw the winners using, or were told by magazines like PS are "the thing" to use. (Recall, if you will, the whole "moly bullets" affair).

A couple of the fellas I am talking about have been Washington and Oregon state champions...and one has held maybe a dozen national records in another aspect of benchrest. Then, too, I seem to recall Fred Hasecuster (who built one of my current rifles) having once won the Super Shoot with a 6 TallDog, which is a whole 'nother kettle of fish altogether. That doesn't make any of them any more correct than me or you, but doesn't make them ignorant amateurs either.

Truth is, I suspect that if I someone won a major match using a set of red flannel long johns draped around his barrel, at the next match you'd see a bunch of people using the same thing. Then, at the match after that you'd likely see someone using silk longjohns and explaining how they absorb less moisture than the wool ones do on damp days and thereby work even better. Then by the match after than, you'd probably read an article from some pundit talking bout how such things damp barrel harmonics and are the cat's meow for shooters "in the know".


Truth is also that match shooters are primarily shooters, not accuracy geniuses or universal truth discoverers. What works, works because they use it. At one time it was the .222 round. Before that it was the .219 Donaldson Wasp. Right now it is the 6 PPC. Eventually, it will be something else.

What the great majority use at any given time is interesting, but not the world's end-all or be-all of acccuracy posssibilities. It will be just as interesting to see what they ARE using in 25 years, if they are still allowed to benchrest shoot anything. Too bad for me I won't be here to see it. I hope you others all still are.

Best wishes either way.

Canuck

Because I agree with you I think you're a pretty smart fella. I've always held the notion that Benchrest shooters are copycats and the most fickle people in the world. Absolutely no loyaty to anything or anybody. I am one so I'm talking about me too.

I recall a time about 5 or 6 years ago when a shooter put a piece of plastic bag on the top of his front rest bag and the forend slid back and forth like grease. Pretty soon you could see pieces of plastic bag all up and down the line. Then a guy said that the plastic bags from K Mart were slippier than those from Safeway and everybody started shopping at K Mart. The furor died down eventually when everybody remembered that you still had to be able to read the wind, no matter where you shopped.

And the fickleness doesn't stop with Benchrest shooters. Go to any kind of shooting competition and you'll see that most everyone uses the same gear as the guy next to him, and the next guy, and the next guy . . .

Ray

got to agree with the copycat theory. I wrote for PS for nine years, and shot HBC for about that long. It is interesting to note that for a time, there was not any brass to be had, and Tony Boyer offered me $2 apiece for some brass I had from Fred. The rifle was a switch barrel he built me for 25BR and 6PPC. During the shortage I, and a number of other BR shooters used the Norma 220 Swift brass and shortened and fireformed it to 6PPC dimensions and just used the 308 bolt. It shot just as well...but I was glad to get the 220 Russian.

Rich
DRSS

quote:

Originally posted by pointblank:

quote:

Originally posted by 308Sako:
Pointblank, I still have 400 virgin Sako 220 Russian cases brought from Lester Bruno back in the early 80's when I was working on the first prototype factory 6PPC from Sako. Now those are desirable cases...

Since this brass hasn't been available for many years, I'm not sure why it would be relevant. Yes it is excellent brass, but brass don't last forever and most shooters like a consistent supply of quality brass.

Pointblank it was made as a comment regarding quality brass. There was a time when it was bringing $3.00 a case as there was no Lapua to shoot. I don't think it has gone bad sitting on the shelf just yet.

quote:

Originally posted by Idaho Sharpshooter:
During the shortage I, and a number of other BR shooters used the Norma 220 Swift brass and shortened and fireformed it to 6PPC dimensions and just used the 308 bolt. It shot just as well...but I was glad to get the 220 Russian.Rich
DRSS

Rich

Great minds think alike. You did exactly the same thing Lou Palmisano did. His first "PPC" cartridge was a shortened 220 Swift called the ERASER. When he found a box of SAKO 220 Russian brass he immediately saw that it was a better answer to making cases and he bought a bunch of it from a dealer in Europe. At that time the SAKO 220 Russian or the Lapua 5.6x39 brass was almost unknown in the USA.

The LAPUA 5.6x39 had a large rifle primer BTW.

Ray

quote:

Originally posted by Pegleg:
My experience tells me the only reason that some use the 7.62 X 39 brass is that it is cheaper. Tests have shown that the small primer pockets produce better accuracy. The Army had a run of 308 brass done with the small primer pickets and this ammo was used as match ammo.

Well, Sir, the money saving theory does not apply to these guys. Among the fellows I am speaking of, one has quit shooting because a recent marital discord cost him several million dollars cash and a large ranch in Montana (his "huntin' place"). He bought Jim Borden's rifles two & three at a time for several years prior to that. He did not ever shoot anything just to save money, but because he was curious about what would work the best for HIM.

And, though it is true some tests have shown small primer & small flash hole cartridges to be most accurate, some have not. Our tests have showed no significant differences if the right components were used in each, but the .220 Russian cases ARE much easier to make into PPCs.

The truth about the Army use of the small primered .308 cases is that the idea sounded interesting, so they tried it. It did NOT work out over the long haul, so it was dropped. We all tried that here too, when Remington began supplying the cases to the public, and we found the same thing the Army did. The .308 case is apparently too large for every small rifle primer to provide consistent ignition. I say "apparently", because there may be some combos of load components which will work out fine with it. There are also many combos of components which work well with large primers.

(Just for info, the "we" I am speaking of includes several "distinguished" award riflemen, several other Master rated competitors, at least one Palma team member, and another competitor who has won at least one major event at Camp Perry. Again, people with a practical, applied shooting row to hoe, not dreamers.)

Anyway, mine was NOT a post which advocated the use of large rifle primed 6PPC cases, so if anyone thinks it was, I invite them to go re-read it. It does NOT say that anywhere in the entire text of it.