I shoot 308 in a bolt gun in a Spring offhand league. All the matches are at 200 yards. I'd like to come up with a very accurate but light recoiling load. The throat on my rifle has some wear, so I can't get much neck engagement and still be close to the rifling with anything lighter than 168 grain Sierra Match Kings. I also like these because they are available in moly. I've tried IMR-4895 and IMR-4064, which shot OK, but didn't meter well. I'm currently shooting VV N-135, which is too fast, but meters very consistently. I've also shot a fair amount of LC match ammo, which is plenty accurate, and runs 2550 fps velocity. I'd like to come up with something with maybe 10% less veleocity. Here's a shopping list of what I'd like to find in a powder:

1) Accurate! This probably requires that it fills the case pretty full. No point in going to compressed loads, but the less air space, the more consistent the powder location & burning.

2) Meters well. I'd like to be able to load with a Dillon and not have to worry about throwing oddball charges. The IMR stuff is a fairly long grain powder, and I frequently get +/- a good fraction of a grain weight variations. The VV powder is more like +/- 0.1 grains.

3) Clean burning (which is hard with light loads)

4) Around 2300 fps velocity.

5) Good temperature stability. I've heard ball powder tends to be erratic in this area. I live in New England, and have shot in 45 degree weather one week, and close to 80 degrees the next.

I'm probably going to try VV N-540 next, but before I stock up on powder, I figure I'd see what folks here have to say.

Thanks for your comments!

first rule of accuracy is---you gotta stop shakin

I really like off hand shooting and have done it with many rifles including gallery, schuetzen and centerfire.

For the big bore shooting I like to have the recoil as low as possible and to get the bullet out of the barrel soon or as I call it low barrel time. These light bullet high velocity loads may not enable higher scores but I think they do.

So I use the 6mm Rem. Int'l. with 75 gr bullets and less with velocites over 3000 fps.

I would only use a 308 at 200 yds or even 300 meters for that matter if I had to and would prefer a cartridge with much less recoil.

All that said perhaps the 308 is necessary for some reason. So I would try the 125 Sierra as my first choice and then the other 125 gr bullets and even the 110 VMax. I like powders that are fast burning for the cartridge as full velocity is not needed yet you want enough pressure for decent ignition. Not sure what I would use for powder in the 308 but unless full velocity is needed for silhouettes for instance I would try IMR 4198, RL 10 and IMR's SR 4759. Of these 4759 will give the least recoil and it measures very well.

Tell me what the match is like?

what Savage99 said!!! try the 125's. my 308 loves 125 nosler bal.tips over 47.5gr of RL15.
it has a light weight #1 taper 20" tube. shoots sub-minute consistantly at 200yds. that is off the bench, of course. at my age and condition you must "prop" on something.

N-550 From 40.7 grains to 48.9 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer

quote:

Originally posted by DaGwhite:
...Here's a shopping list of what I'd like to find in a powder:

1) Accurate! No problem!
2) Meters well. No problem!

3) Clean burning (which is hard with light loads) No problem!

4) Around 2300 fps velocity. Might be a problem with this Powder. How about a rough average of 2500fps in a 26" barrel.

5) Good temperature stability. No problem!...

If you are determined to use the 168gr MatchKing(which is one REALLY excellent bullet), you might want to try "Starting Loads" of H380 shown in the Hodgdon Manuals with a Fed Gold Medal Primer in Weight Sorted cases that have been fully Match Prepped.
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However, while you are getting that Load going, beg, borrow, or buy a couple of 150gr Round Nose Bullets from both Hornady(Part# 3035) and Sierra(Part# 2135). Then see if they will reach the Lands. Due to their Round Nose Profile they might just reach the Lands for you. If they do, try some Varget with them and the Fed GMs.

The Hornady is a 2-diameter bullet and offers some advantages over a lot of other bullets - self centering(Bore diameter ahead of the Cannelure and Groove diameter aft), reduced bearing contact, reduced pressure and amazingly accurate.

The Sierras are not 2-diameter, but they are very accurate in their own right.

Both of the 150gr RNs can provide a bit less Recoil for you and it is fairly easy to pick up some "side bets" when they see you are loaded with RNs.

Super sleek bullets really come into their own waaaaay beyond the 200yd line.

Best of luck to you.

quote:

Originally posted by ricciardelli:
N-550 From 40.7 grains to 48.9 grains
Remington 9-1/2 Primer

48.9 grains is more than a grain and half over VV's maximum, so I think I'll stay well away from that. I checked your web site, and you don't have 308 listed in your favorites, so I don't know what you might typically use. I'm curious why you suggest N550 over N540? Is it because N550 will give better fill factor than N540?

Thanks!

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
<snip>
However, while you are getting that Load going, beg, borrow, or buy a couple of 150gr Round Nose Bullets from both Hornady(Part# 3035) and Sierra(Part# 2135). Then see if they will reach the Lands. Due to their Round Nose Profile they might just reach the Lands for you. If they do, try some Varget with them and the Fed GMs.

Interesting idea. It would mean giving up on moly unless I want to roll my own, but it would definitely allow me to reach the lands better with a light bullet. I've got a sizeable stash of 168's right now, but by the time I use them up, my throat will have advanced another 5 or 10 thousandths. At some point a round nose, flat base bullet may be the only way to avoid a new barrel.

I haven't read much about Varget, I'll have to do some more research.

Thanks!

"48.9 grains is more than a grain and half over VV's maximum, so I think I'll stay well away from that. I checked your web site, and you don't have 308 listed in your favorites, so I don't know what you might typically use. I'm curious why you suggest N550 over N540? Is it because N550 will give better fill factor than N540?"

The .308 is NOT one of my favorite calibers. I prefer the .30-06.

The reason I picked N-550 is because it gave me the most consistant accuracy and velocity when I was working-up the .308 loads.

As for my max load being over VV book's max load, it is the max load using that batch of powder, in that rifle with that lot of bullets which showed none of the usual signs of excessive pressure.

All loading data, regardless of where it is found, is a recipe, not a bible...that's why you start low and work-up gradually until YOUR firearm indicates excessive pressure.

I went through a few 8lb kegs of WW-748 shooting 168gr SMK's in Silhouette matches. I was loading them a little faster but I think it would be worth a try. I liked it because I got good velocity and accuracy and it meters like water.
There's lots of good powders for the 308, for hunting I like Varget but it doesn't meter like 748.........................DJ

Although it does not meter well I have used a lot of IMR 3031 in the 308.
39.5 gr of IMR 3031 with 168 Sierra HPBTMK has shot well in every 308 I have shot it in.

I shot under .200" 100yd groups using 42.5gr of BL(C)-2 and 168gr Nosler Comps.It was a light recoiling round in my opinion.Some people consider BL(C)-2 to be a dirty powder,but I never had problems with it.The load chronoed at 2,390 through a 24" 10FP and with a 2.910" OAL.

quote:

Originally posted by DaGwhite:
...It would mean giving up on moly unless I want to roll my own, but it would definitely allow me to reach the lands better with a light bullet.

There is a bit of "aggravation" to Moly Coating your own bullets, but once you learn the tricks it goes real "slick".

quote:

I've got a sizeable stash of 168's right now, but by the time I use them up, my throat will have advanced another 5 or 10 thousandths. At some point a round nose, flat base bullet may be the only way to avoid a new barrel.

I do like those 168gr MatchKings myself. Just went to verify that my current 308Win BBQ loads have them - they do.

Having the "stash" allows you some time to locate some of the RNs.

quote:

I haven't read much about Varget, I'll have to do some more research. ...

The burning rate is similar to IMR-4064, and Varget is also an Extruded(Stick) Powder. But it is cut so short that it is almost round in appearance.

The suggestion by dj of the WW-748 and glockmeister of the BL-C2 are also excellent recommendations. The WW-748 was initially designed for the 308Win, so obviously it works well in it. And BL-C2 started out as the Surplus version.
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The dirty burning issue is tricky to pin down. It can disappear with enough Bullet Weight, single base Powders, Neck Tension, a hot Magnum Primer, non-Moly coated and starting with the Bullet Seated Into-the-Lands. Anything that speeds up the burning of all the powder in relation to the distance the Bullet has started moving down the barrel.

And the opposite of all that can mean a slighty dirty burn.

So, I've found it to be somewhat of a balancing act. And what works well in one rifle might be act a bit different in another rifle.
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By the way, the reason I've not mentioned the VV Powders is because I have no experience with them.

All interesting info, but everyone has a different suggestion. I guess the hope of finding a firm consensus was a pipe dream.

I hadn't thought about neck tension & moly affecting the cleanliness of a load, but it makes perfect sense. I've had the feeling the VV N135 was dirtier than folks claimed, but it could easily be my neck tension. I use a Redding neck sizing die with the sleeves, and use a neck ID 1 thousandth smaller than normal to hang onto the moly a bit better. However, I noticed that the force required to seat them is still lower than typical for copper jackets.

One more variable to play with...

My present plan for retirement is to spend the first year doing careful load development, by which time my barrel should be shot out. Then I can't start all over again....

quote:

Originally posted by DaGwhite:
All interesting info, but everyone has a different suggestion. I guess the hope of finding a firm consensus was a pipe dream.

Hey DaGwhite, Totally forgot - Welcome Aboard! And best of luck finding the Magic Load.

One of the things that makes the 308Win such an excellent Cartridge is that is does perform so well with a huge number of Powders.

quote:

I hadn't thought about neck tension & moly affecting the cleanliness of a load, but it makes perfect sense. I've had the feeling the VV N135 was dirtier than folks claimed, but it could easily be my neck tension. ....

Maybe. It might help to increase the Neck Tension a bit. You just never know until you try it.

If so, you will also want to "Polish" the Case Mouth with 0000 Steel Wool wrapped around an old 22cal Bore Brush. After Chamfering and Deburring, give it a twist or two with the Steel Wool to remove any small burrs which can "scar" the Bullet Base. And of course when that happens it can create Fliers.
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The first time I made notice of it was many years ago when I burned a lot of H870 in 7mmRemMags. Used a 150gr bullet and it left some extremely tenacious crud that needed removing. Moved up to 160gr and it "appeared" to be reduced. On to the 175gr bullets and it made a noticable reduction in barrel filth.

The H870 is Double Based and it was just a bit too slow for the lighter bullets. Sure was nice and accurate which made it OK for Hunting, but it would have been the pits for Competition.

This is the only situation I've ever seen where a Home Strain Gauge System(HSGS) would actually provide some "useful info". With it you could see the shape of the Pressure Curve(dv/dt) and compare it to the amount of residue left in the barrel. A "Pressure Curve" with a relatively high Peak Pressure and a short duration should burn much cleaner than a Pressure Curve having a lower Peak Pressure and a longer duration - relative to each other.

But, it can still vary between rifles of the exact same Caliber due to slight variations in manufacturing tolerances.

Just more reason to wear out the barrel in the quest for a great load. But they make new barrels every day.

Best of luck with your Load.

44.5g of AA 2520, a spherical powder that meters like water, Fed Match Large Rifle primers (I think they are G210s IIRC) and the aforementioned 168g MatchKings. Any questions? Very clean, very temp stable, very accurate. That load is around 2650-2700fps out of my M-700 VS (26" tube). I'm pretty sure you can go down from there another .5-1.0g for less velocity, although recoil is very moderate with this load.......

MKane160

I have had great luck with Varget in .243 and .308.

I've found IMR4350 to work magic in all 308 derived cartridges. W748 is also at the top of the list.

DaGwhite, Welcome to AR!!! If I had to do load developement on a particular .308 tonite or tomorrow, my go to powder wuld be VARGET to test first!!........probably testing would be a short lived deal!! VARGET is simply in my estimation the most versatile powder ever devised.......especially for the .308 based cases!! .243, .260, 7mm-08 and the .308!! Try some you may like it!! GHD