I am looking into buying a Lee Enfield no4 mk I rifle and after seeing the price of a box of .303 i decided if i was to buy this gun, i was going to reload ammo and try to save a little money. I was wondering if it was economical to reload this round. also, wheres a good place to get supplies like brass and primers and lead? i was thinking about buying one of those lee press kits, one that comes with everything you need like powder measure, scale, primer holder, etc.

thanks in advance for help
Greg

Greg,

It's a good cartridge to start reloading. Everything you need is readily available. I usually buy stuff from midway.com, but there are many other sources available and everyone has their favorites. If you have a local shop, that will be a potentially good (and potentially bad also) source of information.

While the 303 is easy to reload, the SMLEs themselves can be challenging. These rifles are notoriously variable in their bore size, and one of the first advanced manuevers you should prepare for is (after you master the basics of reloading) to slug your bore to accurately determine bore dimension. Then you'll be able to better tailor bullet diameter to your bore. I'd start-out with the Hornady 150 gr 0.312 diameters, these shoot well through my SMLE and Moisins.

Get a reloading manual or two, pay attention and don't rush and you'll make some excellent ammo.

I like Lee, and for a beginner I think it's a good first step. Its not expensive and let's face it, a single stage reloading press is a very simple device. A progressive press may be a different story.

wow thanks for the fast reply. ive reloaded shotgun shells before, im an avid skeet shooter and dove hunter, so i have a basic understanding of the reloading process, but have never reloaded rifle ammo before. (the shot shell press i use is progressive.) does rifle ammo reloading differ that much?

Also, how hard is it to find replacement parts like barrels and recievers for SMLE rifles? i was looking at some at local shops and they had them for cheap ($100-$200) but most of them were pretty "shot out." I want to look around first to see if I can find one in better condition, but if it comes down to it if I have to buy a lesser quality one, I probably will.

With the 2 Lee Enfields I've reloaded for I found the chambering/headspace dimensions to be quite "generous" which is common in that rifle. The best I ever got out of 303 brass was two loadings. At that point the brass was showing signs of head separation. And the loadings were relatively mild. Hope you have better results than I did.

I've gotten 2-3 MOA with irons (matching that of Remington factory softs) using 174 gr Sierra Matchkings and 180 gr Remington Corelokts. No case separations yet but I'm only on my 3rd loading and I'm partial full length resizing.

The SMLE is without a doubt the most rugged and dependable bolt action military rifle ever produced. One reason for it's dependability is it's generous chamber dimensions that lessen the liklihood of a feeding jam. The downside is that the brass has to expand to fill this generous space and full length resizing is going to really shorten case life.

I think the best way to work with the .303Brit is to consider it the same way one would an improved or wildcat case. Once the case has fireformed to the chamber, neck size only until the case length increases to the point where you have to set the case's shoulder back for easy chambering. This will vary from rifle to rifle, but you should be able to get at least five loadings before needing to go back and use the full length sizer. Necks can become brittle, too, and annealing may be necessary. The hotter you load, the shorter your case life will be, but the hottest loads aren't generally the most accurate anyway.

I would buy a Lee Deluxe rifle die set (it has both FL and Neck size dies) and a Lee Factory Crimp die. Their Anniversary Press Kit is a great deal for a beginner's setup, too. You will first need to buy at least two loading manuals (I recommend Lee and Sierra, but any by the major bullet or powder companies will do). I would start out with IMR 3031 and Alliant Reloader 7 for powders. 3031 will not meter as easily, but is a stellar performer in medium capacity cases.

Will reloading save you money?
You will be able to produce ammo for less, but as addicting as shooting anything can be, you'll be spending on components and tools and isn't that a great deal on that rifle down at the gunshop so let's see I need another die set, brass, bullets, primers, powder.....
The good news is it will keep you off the streets and out of trouble, and you will meet some really interesting people. What more could you ask for in a hobby?

I like the comments about "generous" chamber dimensions, that is absolutely true. If you remove the bolt head from the bolt, you'll notice that it has a number on it. They are easily removeable/replaceable because they change headspace repidly over the years. The biggest problem is in trying to find larger numbered bolt heads, they are almost non-existant today. The advice to fireform new cases and don't set the shoulders back is very good. You can control headspacing to a great degree this way.

Regarding replacement barrels, if it was me I'd shoot it until I was sure it wasn't going to work, and then I'd look into getting an aftermarket barrel contoured to the stock SMLE dimensions - I'd see if Lothar Walther, Pac Nor, etc. could provide one like they do Mauser barrels - I'm not sure they do, it seems like the SMLEs have some extra machining steps that the simpler Mausers don't. Those Brits and their SMLE amaze me with all the little parts and pins in that rifle. It amazes me that they hold together so well. The SMLE is the most complicated battle rifle I've had the pleasure to have stripped down.

Hopefully someone will have better info about rebarreling - I'm interested too.

I wouldn't be as interested in a surplus barrel due to the generous throat issues mentioned above. With that said some of the old surplus Mauser barrels that I've used have been really good accuracy-wise, even with their battle-reliable throats - especially the Swedes - they made a damn fine rifle barrel.

The advice about avoiding full-length resizing is right on and should keep you out of headspace trouble if yours turns-out to be on the generous side. Headspace is just as much a reloading issue as a chambering issue. Don't assume that just screwing-down the sizing die to meet the shellholder is going to be right for your particular rifle. Only size the neck and leave the shoulder alone unless it is causing chambering trouble. If chambering is problematic, only adjust the die until the bolt closes with a little effort. Make dummy rounds to test. See all the fun you are going to have reloading? And you get to make ammo that is PERFECT for your rifle's chamber.

It's possible to rebarrel with an arsenal made barrel; especially if you have your own tools. Finding these barrels is quite another problem as they are about as plentiful as sweetgum leaves in January.

If you want to have your rifle rebarreled, a good gunsmith can do it and will probably charge $200-$500 to do it.

As an avid Lee-Enfield lover, what I advise is to purchase the rifle, the Lee Anniversary reloading kit, Lee Delux .303 die set, 50 pieces of Winchester brass, and a box of Hornaday .312" .303 bullets. Unless the barrel is really shot out, I'll bet you'll get some good use out of it. A No. 4 Mk 1 isn't a bench rest rifle, but it is quite accurate off the shoulder and the recoil is pleasantly mild.

Try it, you'll like it! I own two and I'm always watching out for number three!...

well i want to thank you all again for the fast replies and all of the great info. you really have helped me out. with this kind of resource as a starting point it makes things easy. im gonna be able to go out and make a relatively informed decision on what im going to buy.

What kind of primers should i buy?!?

i really appreciate the help and you will see me much more on this thread and these forums im sure!!!

more questions pending

Greg

quote:

What kind of primers should i buy?

Keep it simple and buy whatever brand was used to develop the data for the loading manual you choose.

well ive ordered the lee anniversary kit, dies, powder, brass, bullets, reloading manual for .303. waiting for that manual before i buy primers. And im still looking for an SMLE in good condition before i buy. Anything important ive overlooked?

I've been reloading the .303 British for several decades now, and lately most of the work has been with cast bullets.

"Partial full-length resizing" does indeed work, by not allowing the shoulder to be set back, and I've done a lot of that.

I've also discovered that a .308 Winchester sizing die does a wonderful job of neck-sizing on .303 brass. We're only talking about a few thousandths of an inch difference in neck diameter(at least in my dies, both RCBS in .308 and .303). This presents no difficulty in loading jacketed bullets, and it even works for cast bullets with the proper neck-expander.

It's important to remember that "headspace" in the .303 is ONLY THE THICKNESS OF THE RIM. Changing bolt heads has NO effect on chamber fit and dimensions; all the longer bolt head does is decrease the clearance between bolt face and barrel face.

I've got a No4 that shoots great with jacketed bullets. I tried .311 cast bullets and they tumbled on their way to the 50 yd line which indicated a way oversized barrel. I pushed through a lead sinker and found I had a .315 barrel. I thought I'd try something drastic so swaged an 8mm .326 240 grain bullet to .315. IT sticks way out of the case! I tried it with 16 grains of 2400 and got a six shot 4" group from offhand just to see what would happen. Little recoil but I had to jack the sites way up. I was pretty happy! That was a couple weeks ago and will have to do some load development. I love military bolt actions.

As to primers, if you are priming with Lee AutoPrime or AutoPrime2 you can use only CCI or Winchester primers. They warn you very clearly about that in the Lee manual and in the literature with the tools.

Primer choice isn't that critical at this point, you have to work up your loads starting with the lightest loads the manual lists. Switching any component is a nono with hotter loads, you have to back off on the charge and work up each time. You will likely find the more accurate load for the powder lies somewhere in the middle of the working pressure range anyway.

As the charge increases be aware of the signs of high pressure: 1) flattened primers, then 2) cratered primers, then 3) sticky extraction, then 4) difficulty lifting the bolt handle. A smart man stops at 1, when the primers start to flatten. If you aren't happy with accuracy at that point, try another powder.

BTW, BruceB knows what he's talking about. I have learned much from him on the Cast Boolits Board. Not a bad place to go and meet the crew when you get a chance. Casting is even more addicting than handloading.

You can't go wrong with Sierra Bullets. There's a reason why so many matches are won with them and so many hunters swear by them. (Unless you're going for really big or dangerous game, then I'd opt for Nosler Partitions, but don't worry about that yet.)

You'll also need the case length gauge/shell holder for the .303Brit to go with the cutter and lock stud in the kit. A lube pad to roll your cases on for FL sizing and a loading block to hold your cases are both good things to have, too. That should round out your "must haves".

"must haves"

The next step is to the find someone near you who can show you around a reloading set up. You can learn a lot from manual, but this is a heck of a lot easier to learn from someone who knows how to do it.

If you haven't already, please do buy a general reloading manual. The Lee manual is about as good as any, although I am pretty partial to the Sierra reloading manual myself.

I trim my cases with the Lee case length trimmers and an electric drill. I load everything with CCI bench rest primers because that's what my Dad buys and I use his reloading lab.

If you ordered Lee dies, I hope you ordered the Deluxe die set. If not, go ahead and order a Lee neck sizing die for the .303 with your next order. I use it and like it a lot.

Lastly, if you haven't already, buy that rifle!

Keep us posted and good luck!

I have a .303 that has .318" grooves. It keyholes with military
surplus .303 ammo that measures .309", but shoots the .310" well.



I read the "springy" enfield action in load books and doubted that was the real cause of 303 brass having such short brass life. I suspected
it was the huge possible headspace range:

SAAMI is .054 to .064 cartridges and .064 to .071" chamber.
That makes .017" of stretch for the case wall possible.

Plus I am calculating the bolt compresses .0029" at 45 kpsi chamber pressure.

That means that a 303 that headspaces, with in spec brass could stretch the brass .020"

But wait, there are other problems...

There are different bolt heads for setting headspace:
No 4 bolthead sizes:
0 - .629 to .625 in.
1 - .625 to .630 in.
2 - .630 to .635 in.
3 - .635 to .640 in.

There are no surplus size 3 heads left in the US or Canada that I can find.

As a result, I have been Silver soldering shims on #4 Enfield bolt heads.

Some old guy in Florda emailed me that he has been forced to do the same for decades to get #1 Enfields to headspace.


What does it all mean?
The brass won't last long, so buy more brass or download to lower pressures.

I have been downloading pressure.
Pistol powder and lead bullets can have high pressure too. Downloading could mean wimpy charges of slower powder like IMR4895.

Many years ago I bought 200 rounds of PPU {NNY} berdan primed ammo which I have reloaded since first firing. Most of it survived fifteen reloads and I still have forty that have been reloaded more than twenty times, mostly after neck sizing but all have been FLSed at least once when I replaced my old warhorse with a NIW #4Mk2. I have other brass with similar history.

I haven't fired an old .303 for years, but a few days ago, I was watching a caribou hunting show (Canadian obviously) and watched a fellow clobber a pair of them, flat dropping them like they were hit over the head with a sledge hammer. One of them was a pretty fair distance, I'd say 300 or so, when I saw the second one I happened to look and see what he was shooting. No .300 or .338, a sporterized Enfield with a scope, apparently a .303 that looked like it had won a WWII battle or two. I know the caribou aren't difficult to kill, but the old slow .303 just flattened them, not even a kick from the 'bou.

RAAAARRRR!!! i cant find this gun anywhere!!!!! everyone says "OH yeah! we see enfields all the time!!!! good ones too!!!" but of course, never when i am around!

and i could get one for a reasonable price from gunbroker.com but then i have to shell out $100 or more to get FFL privelages to get it shipped to my local dealer, and im not up for that. im about ready to buy that busted up one at Big5 for 100 bucks. and maybe replace the barrel.

which brings me to a related question: how much does a worn bore affect a guns performance and accuracy? all i really want to use this gun for is taking it out to blast away at targets, its not gonna be a hunting or match rifle.

i saw mentioned a rebarreling for $300 +, is that with me suppling the barrel or is the cost of a barrel included?

It depends on how bad the bore really is, and that's not always easy to determine in a shop, especially if the bore is dirty. You can't tell until it has been thoroughly cleaned. Even then, a rough looking bore in a milsurp doesn't necessarily mean it won't shoot jacketed bullets accurately. The only way to find out is to shoot it.

Barrel blanks sell for anything from less than $100 for an A&B cheapo to more than $1000. It all depends on how good a barrel you want and what is available when you are looking. The job including truing the action, threading, chambering, and crowning the barrel can take up to a day, depending on how much work is needed. Fitting a threaded short-chambered Mauser, Rem, or Savage blank and headspacing it can take an hour or so. Gunsmiths can charge up to several hundred dollars or more for all the bells and whistles, maybe $100 or so to fit an A&B, in addition to the cost of the barrel. You get what you pay for in labor and materials. $300 ought to get you something shootable I would think, but I have only done Mausers and Remingtons and do not know how much work is actually involved with a SMLE.

I bought a shooter grade No4MkI from AIM about six months ago.

The outside has seen better days. The reciever and bolt came from Maltby. The bolt head from Ishapore. The gun was FTR'd in 1949, has perfect headspace and a pristine bore.

Looks can be real decieving when dealing with SMLE's.

All of my SMLE's are great shooters.

I use RL-15 and Sierra bullets. Neck size only. Brass lasts much longer.

ZM

The "smelly" can be a challenge. Some bores are actually 32's. If you start with new brass and fire the first loads with an oiled case you will have fit the brass to the chamber without stretching. Now if you only neck size brass will last much longer. It will be up to you to decide if it is a classic battle rifle or a clunky piece of crap. About forty years ago they were selling Enfields (MKIII) in drug stores in California for $9.95. When shot with wartime ammo it was apparent why the Brits lost their empire.
Good luck!

If you're looking for a blaster, why not a Mauser? There's even super-cheap surplus ammo available. No annoying slugging the bore, rebarreling or reloading required.

what price should i expect for a decen mauser? again not collectors quality, just something to shoot.

quote:

Originally posted by kombatkarl:
what price should i expect for a decen mauser? again not collectors quality, just something to shoot.

Mausers you say?

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Yugoslavian_VZ24_47_8mm_Mauser_Package.html

http://allans-armory.com/aaresult.asp?PageId=45

http://allans-armory.com/aaresult.asp?PageId=32

http://www.samcoglobal.com/rifles.html

http://www.southernohiogun.com/surplusrifles.html

http://www.empirearms.com/

ZM

I don't have #4 but I do load for P-14 303.Even my chamber is much improved The # 4 is stronger than the #1. Case size is about the same as 308,so with a 180 or 174 you are safe up to 2400.Load accordingly.The very best die set for 303 at any price is the Lee Deluxe.Bullet size is problem with 303.The specs are .303 bore and grooves of .0055 = .313 so the Hornady .312 bullets work best.The .3105 Remingtons don't like going as fast.

I noticed this last night:

Enf4 No.4 Mk1 Lee Enfield .303Brit Rifle/Bayonet Package

Item#Enf4
Original British Enfield No. 4 Mk 1 .303Brit Rifles. The British “Work Horse†of WWII. Features detachable 10rd magazine, overall length 42.5â€. Includes Original Spike Bayonet and Scabbard. Solid Rifles in over all Good condition.


Price: $99.95

Quantity:
Add $10 Handpick (Best of 5)

[EMAIL]http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/No_4_Mk1_Lee_Enfield__303Brit_Rifles.html[/EMAIL]

you know, i found that last night too. but i cant bring myself to spend another 120 bucks or so to set up a deal with my local FFL holder to ship there...

konbatkarl,

if the guy is asking a 100% markup just to do the paperwork (i assume you are in the US), go to somebody else. 10-20% or about $20 is all you should have to pay. You should have the whole state to look, and adjacent states....

well, i was gonna go buy the SMLE i found at Big 5, its on sale for $85, and i go down there today to put it on layaway for tomorrow(when the sale starts), and i find out that the one i wanted was gone! bummer, i guess. so i check out the remaining one, and im expecting crap, because the metal around the barrel tip, the sights, and the front bands are all rusty, and the stock is banged up. so i ask for a borelight, and stick it in the chamber, and the bore is SHINY! a little worn, but SHINY! and the bolt action is smooth, a little tight towards the closed position, but i think that is the norm for these rifles, right? anyway except for the surface rust on the outside, the rifle seems in better shape than the other one! so i put it on layaway. i figure ill take it down to the local gunsmith when i get it and get it checked out for any problems with headspace and what not.

the only thing that really worried me, was in the inside tip of the barrel, for just about 3/4 of an inch, there is some surface rust. i think that this can be cleaned up fairly easy.

which brings me to a question, is there a way of refinishing metal parts for a reasonable price at home or do i have to take it to a smith?

If you are gonna buy more than one or two greasy old rifles, get a C&R license.

ZM

The .303 British is a fine cartridge! One caution. When reloading for the SMLE action, keep your loads mild as these are very "stretchy" actions, and carttridge cases will stretch from repeated fitring and resizing. They then develop incipient head separation very early on, so don't expect your brass to last too long when used in the SMLE. This problem doesn't appear when using a P14, a good single-shot or double rifle in .303.

quote:

Originally posted by kombatkarl:
you know, i found that last night too. but i cant bring myself to spend another 120 bucks or so to set up a deal with my local FFL holder to ship there...

My dealer charges $10.00.........

Now, I deserve to get hammered for hijacking this thread but here goes:

New Enfield No 4Mk 2 reciever $29.95




Enfield No. 4 Mk 2 Receiver (Not C&R Qualified, FFL only!)


These are excellent to like new Enfield Mk 2 action bodies made at ROF Fazakerley in the 1950s. Actions are completely stripped and have no bolts or internal parts. This is the only action the British ever authorized for use with .308 Winchester target rifle conversions! Sorry, a receiver by itself cannot be transferred on a C&R license! FFL required!

I wish I had a picture of a case head seperating but I can't find one. Quite often we write about things like a case head seperation without explaining what it is or what to watch for. I've had several that I've picked up at rifle matches, I've got ammo cans full of .303, that have cartridges in the process of seperating.

yay! i got my all my lee reloading stuff i oredered yesterday. i sat down and dug thru it all and said...oooh this is going to be complicated! then i sat down and started putting stuff together and i realized its not so bad at all. im just waiting now to get some ammo and go pick up the gun (after i get i checked out of course) and head down to the range to make some brass to reload!