Hunting season is approaching and many of us are working up new loads or rechecking old favorites. How many of you are using "premium" bullets this year in your favorite hunting loads.
I have used the Nosler partitions exclusively in the past w/ great resluts. I am playing w/ the new Nolser & Hornady bonded bullets for use this year, primarily for deer & antelope, I'll still be toting NPs for the elk though.

For deer and particularly antelope I don't think it matters what you shoot. You just need to miss an antelope close and it will fall over dead. (OK, so that's a slight exaggeration...) Deer are tougher but most any hunting bullet will work. Elk are all together a different story as are African game. They are more tenacious for life and you need to be SURE you can get every ounce of energy and inch of penetration out of your bullet. I've seen more than one "factory load" blow up on an elk's shoulder and I lost a bear a couple of years ago when I hit it with a ballistic tip. He was only about 30 yards away and my 150 gr 7mm was moving at about 3200 fps.

With that said, nowadays I only load premium (bonded or partitioned) bullets in everything but my .22-250. That way I don't need to be switching loads and thinking about what load I use. I just find a load with a premium bullet that my gun likes and shoot everything with it. If I want a heavier or lighter bullet... I use a heavier or lighter gun.

I would expect the new bonded Hornady and Nosler to perform as well as the partition but the jury's still out and the selection is very limited. We'll se how they perform in the field. I like the concept!

I agree with the "find a good load for the rifle and use it on everything" concept totally. EXCEPT, I believe in heavy for calibre bullets. The concept of the magnum rifles was to send a greater payload downrange at the same speed as a lesser cartridge. Had the bear been shot with the same 150gr bullet at @ 2700fps from a .280 or 7x57, you would have a dead bear on your hands.
BTW, I often will use "standard" bullets of the same weight for practice. There may be a slight difference in POI between the standard and premium bullet but that's easily corrected before you go hunting.

[ 06-07-2003, 02:29: Message edited by: beemanbeme ]

in my 350 mag the hornady sp's are deadly accurate and very cheap. as good a bullet that one needs to hunt deer. yet, i hunt with the nosler np 225. why, because i get the warm fuzzy feeling inside when i pull the trigger no other reason i can think of.
woofer

Not...

Ive got some PREMIUM Speer and Hornadys on sale this week only. They have been injected with electrolite, charged, and disperse an electrical shock when the animal is struck thus inducing hydrostatic shock.

Why settle for just a dead animal when you can watch them die dramatically? Blood vessels in deers horns become like light bulb fillaments, Elk do backwards summersaults when struck and antelope will crawl up to you and beg for mercy..!! And you get all of this for "only double the normal cost of standard bullets"!!

E-mail me if your interested.

Wstrnhuntr... Funny!!

beemanbeme.. I agree... slower would have worked but I just love the fire and smoke. That's why I shoot a magnum. Call me crazy. That... and 400 yard shots.

Seriously, that was my "deer" round and it's worked on untold deer over the years from 40 - 400 yards. I should have been using my "elk" load for bear but all I had loaded up was the balistic tips so off I went... Who knew he was going to show up so close. I know that bullet just blew up. Anwyay that's when I changed my philosophy to one load per gun... unless I'm plinking.

Westrnhntr, I take that as a no?

I've pretty much settled on the one load/gun concept as well. I keep playing w/ different bullets & weights, yet I hunt w/ the loads I know work. I am thinking of switching out to one of the bonded bullets in my .280 this year for deer/antelope just to try them.

[ 06-07-2003, 04:59: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I expect if I hunt this year, I'll probably use Speers as usual.

Not!
For deer the premium is pointless unless you like to talk about how much money you spend. On elk they have their place if you insist on light weight bullets. A heavier bullet going a little slower works fine.
I am in the heavy for caliber club when choosing elk loads unless its in my .338 WM and then I have to admit that the last loading of "elk bullets" was with 200gr. Barnes X which worked fine.

I'm sure the premiums have their place in the grand scheme of things. I've never used them so I can't really comment on their "deadliness". Everything I've shot (and I've shot a lot) died quite well with your garden variety "hunting bullets". Sierra Pro Hunters have worked very well for me. As far as that goes, so have milsurp FMJ's back in the olden days when I were poor.

Depends on WHAT you call/name a "Premium Bullet",as most all the Bullets form the Sierra's, Hornadys Sperrs,Barnes and Nosler are to me all Premium Bullets.They are different and will do different things preformace wise,but somewhere in the mix you will find the Right Bullet for the Job at Hand.
I'll be using the Partition,Sierra Pro Hunters and Gamekings and the Old Barnes Oringal,as they give the best results in the rifles they will be fired in.

fredj338 -- For deer and antelope sized animals I will use any bullet in standard rifles, in Magnums I will use premiums. The hot stepping rifles need a tough bullet to do their job, the way I want it done. --- My favorite Deer load for years has been a .300 Win mag with 180 grain Nosler Partitions. I figure you have a standard bullet in the front section and the partition in the rear that is the premium end. --- For larger game animals I use premiums exclusively, and have tried all of them. The North Forks have become my choice, they are tough and super accurate, the later an attribute some premiums lack.
Good shooting.

Fred:

I consider a Nosler Partition as a premium bullet, and also the Barnes X. I only use the Barnes X with the Blue Coating to decrease the bore fouling.

All the other bullets on the market to me, are just more people trying to get a piece of the Partition market saying " We have invented a better mouse trap", so " buy ours" ( for more money) Whatever happened to price driven competition???

I can see a need for a Premium bullet in under 30 caliber in a magnum for close shot performance instead of having the thing blow up on the animal with no penetration.

In over 30, which is 338 for most of us, I have not seen the need for a premium bullet. With the cost of Hornady's 225 grains and 250 grain bullets ( 250 SP and RN) I see no need for the added expense of the others.

Because of the cost, I don't see the need of the partitions in a 338. Between bore size, and the quality of the Hornady's I don't think the partition gives me that much more.
Abig heavy bullets gets moving it is going to penetrate.

Still over the old Round Nose, all the premium bullets do is give you more range, because they are spitzers.

However it has always eluded me the concept of the guys who think they need a 500 yd load to shoot game at 100 yds. It is the old, once in a blue moon I might see a 30 point buck at 500 yds.... or I remember once if I would have been carrying this load I would have had that 30 point buck!!!

And if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass would he?

The American shooter has been brainwashed by the bullet manufacturers as to the need for premium bullets. I don't use them, and the few times I have tried them, nothing died any quicker and my groups certainly weren't any smaller.

Now before I start a riot, I don't own, and never have owned, a magnum rifle. I believe whole heartedly that premium bullets have a place in the hunting fields, it just isn't in my 7x57 or 308 or 7mm-08. It is a good idea to match the bullet to the cartridge, as well as the game.A 180 grain Speer or Sierra, or even ballistic tip, may make a good Elk load in a 308 or 30-06, but shoot an Elk at 75 yards with one of the Earschplitzen Loudenboomer Super 30's, and you may have a long tracking job ahead.

So for my money, and in my puny little standard calibers, you can have the premiums. But if bigger game, blazing speeds and punishing recoil are your game, the premiums are definitely king. JMHO...

Oh yeah, one more place that they are a good idea. That is if you are using a caliber smaller than the norm for the game you are pursuing. If you are going to use a 257 Roberts on Elk then a premium bullet is a good idea. Not as good as a 30-06 with a standard 180 grain bullet, but much better than the 257 with a 100 grain Ballistic tip..

[ 06-07-2003, 20:54: Message edited by: klsm54 ]

I use premiums and will continue to use them in all my hunting loads. When the biggest buck or bull of your life steps out are you really going to be worrying about the extra 15 cents that partition costs? Talk about false economy. It costs me maybe $10 extra a year to hunt with partitions, I practice with the cheap stuff.

The last time I lost an animal I'd hit was a deer 20 years ago and I was shooting cheap remington factory ammo. Shortly thereafter I started handloading and have used premiums ever since. I'm sure part of the reason for my better luck since is that I'm a better shot since I shoot more, but the better bullets sure didn't hurt.

If I want to get out cheap I'll eat at mcdonalds a couple of extra times instead of the outback. The bullet is the one thing that the entire success of your hunt depends upon, it's the one place where I'm not going to try and go cheap.

I like the premium bullets for my hunting but I practice with the cheapest bullet that I can find that shoots good in my guns. I know some people like to dump energy into the animal but I prefer to see two holes in the game I shoot, one in and one out. I've never shot a deer with a Barnes that didn't leave two holes.

I happen to agree w/ many of you on the "premium" issue. I don't think it's a gimmick. I have heard about & seen too many bullets come apart when you need them the most. Some times it's not matching bullets/carts. to the game you are hunting & sometimes it's a slightly misplace shot, but I have never had a NP "fail". I also like the "one hole in & one out" principle. Yes shot placement is more than half the battle, but the bullet needs to stay together & do the job.
One year my buddy misplaced a 250grNP from his .340Wby on a deer 1/4ing away @ 300yds in a pretty good wind. The bullet broke the near shoulder & we tracked him for at least a half mile before getting another shot into him. Obviously the "premium" bullet didn't matter. Two years ago another hunting partner stuck a 180gr WW silvertip into a bull elks ribs @ under 100yds & the bull went down but the bullet never exited & we found only small pieces, again it didn't really matter. If the shot had of been a bit farther forward he would have had one really sick elk to track as I am sure that bullet would have broken up on the leg bone w/o pentrating deep enough. This was from an 06 so I would think the same bullet from a 300mag would have been worse? For me , cheap hunting insurance even for a deer/antelope, especially w/ the mags, you never know when you'll get that 50yd shot w/ your loudneboomer.

[ 06-07-2003, 23:46: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Hmmm....I guess I'm one of those assholes that tries "premium" bullets because I like to...I haven't had any real bullet failures. They've all worked...Even with good shot placement and using Sierra pro hunters, I've spent hours tracking down a buck I've shot. The bullet worked great, blew a fist size chuck out of the opposite side. So I couldn't ask more from a bullet.
I'm not looking for a "magic" bullet, it's just a helluva lot of fun trying new bullets and powder combinations. I spend some money on useless stuff, bullets and powder. But it's a hobby and I'm allowed to piss away money on a hobby.

Tombo21 -- You sir have described thing we do the best of anyone I have ever heard. I shoot three days a week, doing just what you articulated so well. I get pissed when it doesn't work, but "THE GLORY" when it does work is worth it all. The bottom line, being totally prepared when crunch time comes, and the trophy of a lifetime within our grasp, because of all that work. Good shooting.

Boltman:

There is nothing wrong with Premium Bullets, but I have to admit, your philosophy is exactly what the bullet companies want all consumers to think.

Bottom line is, we all should use what is right for us individually. And If premiums give you that level of confidence, then that is actually more valuable in my book than the performance the bullet yields.

LIke my dad use to say, No one every blew up their engine from changing the oil too often. So if using the premos, works, then I would never change if in your shows.

If anyone every gets the chance, it is an interesting thing to take the same caliber and try different bullets at different velocities and shoot them into a branch off of a tree that maybe about 6 to 8 inches in diameter.

Doing so last summer, I found out that Nosler Ballistic tips did more damage when the velocity was 2600 fps or less than it did when impact velocity was over that, and the faster the worse it was.

Likewise shooting varmint calibers into the same media at high speed surprised me on the damage that they did.

Another surprise was the damage done by Sierra Matchkings. I know they really say don't use them for hunting and I will not, but they sure did a lot of damage to wood, especially a lot more than a same caliber spitzer did.

Just gives an individual an opportunity to observe the actual end results. Not much corresponded with what the gun writers always write.

It did make me re think some of my personal philosophy and proved that my old Stand by the Round Nose, does a great job within its range.

Seafire,

Maybe the bullet companies want us to think that way, but that doesn't make it incorrect thinking. The fact remains that the bullets you use are an incredibly cheap part of the hunt. There are better places to cut costs than on the one thing that your hunt depends. Very seldom do I see a guy show up at a hunting camp in a truck that costs less than $25,000 and isn't decked out with leather, power windows, fake wood dashboard, etc., etc. That extra $1000 spent on leather in that truck would buy enough premium bullets for many lifetimes.

Maybe if the difference in price between partitions and plain jane speers/sierras/hornadies were greater I'd have a different opinion, but the price difference is so insignificant as to not be worth a second thought to me. It seems pretty much a no brainer.

Maybe the question would take on a different light if it were posed on the african forum. Ask some of the guys hunting buffalo and lion whether they thing cheapie bullets are good enough or if they should spring for the good stuff. When your life is on the line the pucker factor might change the thinking a bit.

I think a made a big mistake when I said "For my Money". That was meant as a metaphor, and definitely not as a comment on the cost of bullets, premium or not. I am always the one seeking the best accuracy and trying for the perfect shot placement. None of the premium bullets I have ever tried has given me accuracy comparable to the "Standard" bullets, although that new Barnes Triple shock is getting some good press in the accuracy department.

So I have all the confidence in the world in what I am shooting. Cost be damned, if the best shooting bullet in my rifle costs $1.00 a piece it is what I'll use, I just haven't had this experience yet. I agree with Seafire, it is all about confidence. If premiums are the only way that you are going to have confidence in your Gun/Load combo, then by all means that is what you should shoot. I long ago figured out that reloads cost me way more than shooting factory loads, so bullet cost is so insignificant that it never enters into the picture for me.

As far as real world performance, sure the premiums perform great, but so do the standard bullets when matched to the game and caliber they were intended for. When you look at todays standard bullets compared to the bullets of 25 or 30 years ago, they are light years ahead. When I started loading in the 60's there was no such thing as the Interlock feature on Hornady bullets, or any bonding processes for the jacket to core like Speers HotCor. Most jackets were not tapered and there were lots of horror stories about poor bullet performance. We are really lucky today to have the bullet choices we do. It is like Ford/Chevy or Coke/Pepsi. Everybody is going to have a favorite. If it works for you, and you have confidence in it, then that is a big part of the game. Confidence that allows you to place the shot well with any suitable bullet is a big key to success in the field.

[ 06-08-2003, 18:16: Message edited by: klsm54 ]

I think there is a definite diminishing return factor involved here. As the cost goes up, you see an improvment in the quality of the product thru performance or uniformity. But after a while, you're paying for un-needed whistles and bells or hype. For my hunting needs -elk and down- a heavy for calibre partition or grand slam is all the premium I need.

KLSM talks about the accuracy factor, while I am all for the most accurate bullet in my rifles, I also want the bullet to do it's job. I would much rather hunt w/ a NP giving me 1 1/2" gropus than a MK giving me 3/4" groups. Especially if we are talking elk size game or big bodied deer. If your shots are under 200yds, does that kind of accuracy really matter or is it bullet perforamnce? Now if I were sniping antelope @ 300-400 yds then maybe a very accurate NBT or even MK would be fine. By then the bullets have slowed emough not to "blow up". It's about matching the bullet to the game & methods that you hunt. Red heads vs blondes, Ford vs Chevy.

[ 06-09-2003, 01:26: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

Depends on the game being hunted and the cal.and vel. of the gun. In my 350 and 35 Whel. the Speer 250 Spitzer are perfect for large game like moose and bear due to the mid vel of these loads 2500 to 2600 FPS. I use 250 Sierra BT and 250 Hornady RN in my 338 Win with excellent results in Alaska. Now if I were going after dangerous bears like the costal brown bear then a Prem. Bullet may be needed not for me, but a difficult or life saving shot might be needed. Just my 2cents.

To reason that if one bullet costs more than another is insurance against loosing an animal is a simpletons answer and demonstrates only that one has more dollars than sense. Hunting bullets dont do well on any old animal just because they are expensive. They are all designed to operate within certian parameters and should be selected sensibly according to certian variables.

The old school approach was simply that if more penetration was needed then just use a bigger/heavier bullet, it worked then and it still does today, but now there are more variables to choose from which can also mean more pitfalls if the wrong combination is employed.

The solid too has long been an option for tough game and the X type bullets are not much more than a leagalized version of a solid. Nowadays to a certian degree, one can also gain penetration other ways, primarily with higher velocities and specialized bullets like the X. The real question is not premium or not, but what are you hunting and what are you hunting with. Only AFTER that has been adressed should the question of premium or not be raised.

They do have their place, but if you think they are a cure all, then look at some penetration test results and think about why the hollow point exists. If penetration were a cure all then we would all simply be using solids and bullet expansion would never have even been an issue. But it is an issue and for good reason.

[ 06-10-2003, 08:16: Message edited by: Wstrnhuntr ]

How dead does the animal have to be?
muck

"To reason that if one bullet costs more than another is insurance against loosing an animal is a simpletons answer and demonstrates only that one has more dollars than sense".

Wstrn, you sound like you have an ax to grind w/ the "other" bullet manuf. Bullet tech. has taken some great strides since the day before the Nosler Partition came along. Cartridges as well, to some extent, that's what drives the bullet technology. I wasn't around hunting in the 50's but from virtually everything I have read, expanding bullets were pretty inconsistant then. BUllets pushed @ higher speeds need a different level of perfotmance & bullets should be matched to the game & technique hunted, as you sort of stated. It's hardly a "simpletons" view that using a bullet you know can penetrate from any angle to reach vitals, is a bit of cheap insurance. When everyone hunted w/ solids, the calibers were big, making up for lack of expansion, but you new your bullet was going to penetrate even on a tough frontal or 1/4 shots. SOlids till work today, I don't think a partition is much needed in a .45-70?
It's still afree country (as long as the Dems. don't have control) so you can use what you want. Don't take cheap internet shots @ guys who use different equip. than you to do the same task. Like I said, Fords or Chevys, they all get you form place to place.

Muck, so dead I don't have to track him for miles & miles like a cow elk some guy shot a few years back. I ran across her tracks in the snow & there was lots of blood, funny, no human tracks though. We tracked her for at least 2 miles & gave up as we were loosing light. I'm sure the coyotes found her in the night. I have no idea what kind of bullet/cart. she was hit w/ or where she was hit, though the blood did not indicate a lung hit. I'm sure it was operator error but sometimes, sometimes, that better bullet can make a diff. & that's this "simpletons" view point.

[ 06-10-2003, 18:50: Message edited by: fredj338 ]

I shoot premium bullets, because I make my own, and tailor the hardness to the required velocity. I no longer will shoot at a big game animal at over 200 yards. I can sneak up that close with no problem as a rule. For the most part, I encounter game at much less range than this. Antelope and sheep are about the only things I can think of that I had to do a lot of sneaking on.

I shoot rifle five days a week, and have learned my limitations for field position shooting, and being 98% sure of a kill zone shot, without worrying about wind or whatever. Most bullet failures I've heard of relate more to people shooting at long range, with poor placement of the bullet, rather than the bullet itself.

It may be sport to us, but it is deadly serious to the animal. Respect them.

Boltman:

You make a good point with the reference of the 25,000 dollar pickup. Can show a difference with people's point of view or prospective. If I would ever show up at one of your hunts, I drive a 1988 Toyota Forunner ( my travel and hunting truck), although I did rebuild the engine and tranny, instead of getting rid of it since I love that vehicle, it is not worth anywhere near $25,000. In fact this week it will roll over 450,000 miles on it. I don't keep it for financial reasons, I keep it because it is reliable, has always been reliable, and does a good job. Just because it is old does not mean I need something else. In fact I am glad my wife has the same philosophy on me.

I don't believe in cutting corners, to save a dime. I believe at times premo bullets are worth what you pay for them, especially since I pick up Nosler Blems at the factory or order them. I also don't hunt something that can eat me, except maybe black bear. With that type of hunting I use one of three combos, 6.5 x 55 with 160 gr RNs, 7 x 57 with 175 gr RNs and the 338/06 with a 250 gr RN. Ooops, make that 4, 30/06 with 220 gr RN.

The rifle will also carry a 4 power scope or a 3 x 9 set on 4x.

Guess maybe I am more a traditionalist the older I get. On another post someone was asking about rifle and caliber choices. I had to applaud the gentleman that thought a 257 AI Roberts in a Mauser 98 action was a great combo. I had to agree.

Was reading an old article by Jack O'Connor about calibers for Grizzly in Alaska. It was written in the 1930s or so, maybe 40s, but he was stating that a 257 Roberts with a handloaded 117 RN was what he considered an ideal Grizzly load, especially if they are not agitated.

Humorous since today, people think that someone with a 257 Roberts for Bear of any type in Alaska nowadays, might as well be carrying a slingshot.

Just gets me of all the "Old Stuff" that worked in the old days, but we need such modern super power bullets in super power calibers with super large high magnification objectives, to basically still take the same game at less than 100 yds on average.

Always makes me wonder what changed? Just more expense and much more rifle recoil. People used lighter stuff to feed themselves, now it is more a sport, anywhere in the world. In those days it was subsistance, and food on the table.

Don't understand why we need all that extra stuff and weight. Reminds me of how a Yuppie Living in San Francisco needs a 100K Hummer to get across town in traffic that just crawls, in summer, on paved roads. To me it is just flaunting a lot of money, and no one really likes a showoff.

Lets not tell all those dead deer they were killed with an old leaver action 30/30, non premuim Remington Corelock...

Considering the Nosler partitions don't cost a lot, it is kind of hard not to justify there use...

I have used the Rem. Corelokts, WW powerpoints and they are excellent bullets as are Speers,and Hornadys but I also lived through a decade of bullet failures and with the premiums I don't have to deal with that any more...

The simple facts are that bullets have been so vastly improved in the last 10 even 5 years that it is almost unbelieveable and I'm going to go with the flow...

Mauserkid,
What you don't seem to understand is the Corelokts and WW 30-30 bullets are probably the most highly developed bullets in the history of guns and ammo...They spent million developing a perfect bullet for that caliber, of course they work...same for the 30-06 and the 22 L.R.

Ah Ray, there you go again, being all wise & knowing.

Dear Mauserkid,

part of this issue is psychological, of course. If one really were to feel so much better when using "Premium" bullets (the more expensive, the better the feeling - it's the old medieval "indulgence" principle), then they should at all means use them - it's a rather cheap surcharge for so much peace of mind.

On the other hand, the excellent performance record of the "classical" and fairly simple long-n-heavy-for-caliber round nose bullets shows us time and again that they are all that is needed for many (not for all !) common hunting situations. So, very few people need to have a bad conscience about choosing less-then-"premium" bullets, as long they they place their shot well enough, and with deliberation.

Regards,
Carcano

Westernhunter alluded to a situation that is also rampant in the rifles we shoot. A premium bullet will not make up for a poor shot nor poor shot selection. It seems some folks feel that buying the higher priced spread enables them to "arkansas" away in the general direction of the game and it will fall dead. And, of course, a bigger rifle is a guarentee. Hit the animal in the foot and kinetic energy will blow his ears off. We now know that ain't so but I wonder how many Weatherbys and 7mm Rem Mags were sold on that very premise? Whether you use premium bullets or not is a moot point but if you can't stick it in the right place, then you can't spend enough money for your rifle or ammo to make any difference. And that's a fact.

Quite often on forums I see someone jumping back and forth between the Barnes X / Failsafe bullets and Nosler BTs. The middle ground works very, very well on deer AND elk. A bullets not expanding is a real problem on lighter game. Explosive bullets do kill deer but bloodshot alot more meat than I like. Even though I couldn't care less about 2 holes I still want some good penetration. The standard bullets shoot well and do put the hammer down. I've had bullets do unexpected things on both ends of the spectrum, but the standard bullet just do their job without the flash.

As a sales guy I know that marketing makes the world go round.

Reading through this I think one thing hasn't really been brought out. Testing.

I use different bullets but rarely the Partitions or Barnes X's. In my experience, I learn more about the bullets performance in my gun by actually shooting it than anything else. I section a bullet to see the jacket thickness and then trap a few to see how they expand.

Sometimes to little expansion and great penetration yield worse results than the other way around. The bullet has to perform in the gun it's to be shot out of at the velocity it will be used at. Test a few up close and then back away and try it again. The results may change the way you look at bullets.

I see far more magnum rifles in the windows of "hunter's" pickups than I care to discuss. This is I believe why there is so much talk about "blow-up's". The state police game div has proven that road hunters typically don't see deer farther than 35 yards away. Why? Because they wanted to set thier decoys up at the optimum distance. I'm not against using magnums and in fact use a 7mm Rem Mag quite a bit. I also use a .257 Roberts for deer a lot and a .338 for elk. They match the game and perform well. The cartridge needs to be as much a consideration as the bullet. What's the point in a super-mag for 100 lbs deer at 30 yards?
If the bullet matches it's specs to the velocity it will be used at it will be effective. The bullet makers have spent a lot to prove they will work as designed and they will make recomendations. Testing the load you are wanting to use before-hand will give a much better understanding of it's characteristics than just judging based on good sales pitches.