I've ordered some Oregon Trail 170gr GC bullets for my 308 Savage 99 and am having a hard time finding loads/guidance.

I know there is a certain fps that the bullets will start leading the barrel, but I'd like a decent speed load that I could use for deer hunting within 150 yards and for plinking.

Will I have to use dacron filler?

Lyman's Cast Bullet Manual or their 48th Reloading Handbook will give you loads for their 311041 which is very similar to the Oregon Trail bullet.

Numerous powders will get you into the 1800 fps range without the use of a dacron filler. They are 2400, 4759, 5744, 4198 and 4227.

However, 1900 - 2200 fps is much better for hunting, especially with the harder bullet you are using. Granted 1800 fps will kill deer but a load that is just as accurate and 300 fps faster kills deer quicker. With both types of loads, actually with all loads, you must strive to put the bullet into the heart/lung area.

To get the higher velocities the medium range powders work best. My favorites are RL7, 3031 and 4895. My go to hunting load for deer with Lyman's 311041 in the .308W has always been 33 gr of 4895 with a 3/4 gr dacron filler. This gives about 2150 fps out of most 22' barrels and is accurate for a hunting load but it will foul the barrel after 8-10 shots or so and requires normal cleaning to restore accuracy (2 moa is quite acceptable to me for hunting accuracy). That's ok for a hunting load as I'm not going to shoot any where near 8 or 10 shots when hunting deer.

My general practice load is 28 gr of 4895 with the 2/4 dacron filler. This runs 1800+ fps and is very accurate and I can shoot all day long without any cleaning of the barrel. I use Javelina lube for my hunting and prcatice loads. I have shot the Oregon trail bullets with these loads and they did fine in my .308Ws (3 rifles). One had a rough throat and a little leading was noticeable there. Simply tumble lubing the Oregon Trail bullets with Lee's liquid alox lube solved the leading problem.

The other medium burning powders work well but I've had such excellent performance with 4895 (any flavor of it) that it is mostly what I use.

Larry Gibson

Depends on what you want to do with those bullets, plink, targets or game?
Fpr plinking and small game, try about 5.0 gr. of Unique. You might want to put a one-quarter square of toilet paper against the charge to hold it against the primer. Hasn't hurt anything in my .308. For targets, try 25.0 r. of either IMR or H-4895. You can try it with or without a one grain tuft of dacron lightly tamped against the charge to see which way works best for your gun.
For hunting, I would try fro about 2000 FPS with powders like Imr-3031, 4895, either IMR orH. and similar powder in that general burning rate area. The only cartidge I use with cast bullets for hunting is a 30-30 Win. which i load up close to full power Seventeen dead deer with that set up proves to me that cast will work just fine on deer at reasonable ranges.
My prefered bullets in the 30-30 are the Lyman #311291 (175 gr.) and the RCBS #30-180-FN (195 gr. in my alloy)
I just never bothered to work up a huntinhg load for the .308.
Paul B.

Purely personal opinion but cast bullets that are hard enough to obtain speeds approaching 2,000 fps are much too hard to expand and that's makes them poor choices for game.

Cast bullet weights are largely irrelivant for speed. Given the same alloy we can push heavy ones just as fast as light ones.

Lyman's gas checked 311291 sized to .309" has a reputation for good accuracy, especially with the NRA alox-beeswax formula lube.

quote:

Originally posted by Paul B:
Depends on what you want to do with those bullets, plink, targets or game?
Fpr plinking and small game, try about 5.0 gr. of Unique. You might want to put a one-quarter square of toilet paper against the charge to hold it against the primer. Hasn't hurt anything in my .308.

Paul, I've been doing quite a bit of experimenting with sub-sonic lead bulets in .308 Win. I'd recommend kicking that Unique load up about 1 gr. ..... and I'd leave out the toilet paper.

Paul, like you, I don't think much of lead bullets in the .308 Win. for hunting big game or target shooting at long range. That's what jacketed bullets are for.

But at 100 yards.... the subsonic loads I've developed can group into under an inch in an accurate .308 Win.

However, they are moving slow ...... so wind is a BIG factor!

quote:

Originally posted by leoparddog:
Will I have to use dacron filler?

If you do, you are taking a chance on "Ringing" the Chamber or the Barrel. There were a lot of articles concerning this issue back in the `50s from the NRA.
-----

Actually there are all kinds of things which cause Leading; too slow, too fast, Alloy wrong, Blow-By, Base Cutting, wrong Lube, etc. It takes a book or two to explain all of the ways it happens.

Money is well spent on an old Lyman Manual when you decide to use Lead.

Best of luck to you.

Again Hot Core opines where he knows nothing. It is wads that ring chambers, not fillers. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Jim C. <><:
Purely personal opinion but cast bullets that are hard enough to obtain speeds approaching 2,000 fps are much too hard to expand and that's makes them poor choices for game.

Cast bullet weights are largely irrelivant for speed. Given the same alloy we can push heavy ones just as fast as light ones.

Lyman's gas checked 311291 sized to .309" has a reputation for good accuracy, especially with the NRA alox-beeswax formula lube.

While prefer my hunting cast bullets to expand and use softer (much softer) alloys many put faith in the flat meplat as causing sufficient damage to kill well. Experience has proven that that very bullet at 2000 - 2100 fps out of 30-30s etc does indeed kill deer efficiently and with minimal meat damage. Bullet placement, however, is paramount.

DaMan

Actually right around 7.5 - 8 gr of Unique will get about 1050 fps in .308Ws with that bullet. and it does make for a decent plinking/small game load.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Again Hot Core opines where he knows nothing. It is wads that ring chambers, not fillers. There is a distinct difference between the two.

Between what you "think you know" and "actual reality" is an Ocean of actual knowledge.

I'm not talking about shotguns at all. Fillers can/do Ring Chambers and Barrels, just the Facts not ignorance.

So while I would strongly encourage the radar-running doughnut-eater to use them at every opportunity, I would strongly discourage LeopardDog from doing the same.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
DaMan

Actually right around 7.5 - 8 gr of Unique will get about 1050 fps in .308Ws with that bullet. and it does make for a decent plinking/small game load.

Larry Gibson

Larry, your milage differs from mine. But not by much.

I recently chronographed some 165gr.plain lead based bullets (.310") in a heavy barreled Rem. BDL and found that 6.5 gr. of Unique was just below sub-sonic (1095fps avg./ 47fps ES).

That is one of my favorite plinking loads. Very accurate out to 100 yds.

I've found that slightly under 6.0 gr. of Unique is sub-sonic in the .30-30 Win. with the same bullet.

I use standard LR primers in both.

I do not use any filler with my Unique plinking loads. I don't feel it's needed or desired.

quote:

Originally posted by DaMan:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
DaMan

Actually right around 7.5 - 8 gr of Unique will get about 1050 fps in .308Ws with that bullet. and it does make for a decent plinking/small game load.

Larry Gibson

Larry, your milage differs from mine. But not by much.

I recently chronographed some 165gr.plain lead based bullets (.310") in a heavy barreled Rem. BDL and found that 6.5 gr. of Unique was just below sub-sonic (1095fps avg./ 47fps ES).

That is one of my favorite plinking loads. Very accurate out to 100 yds.

I've found that slightly under 6.0 gr. of Unique is sub-sonic in the .30-30 Win. with the same bullet.

I use standard LR primers in both.

I do not use any filler with my Unique plinking loads. I don't feel it's needed or desired.

You're right on there with the 165 PBs. I had some of that weight some years back from Liberty Cast Bullets and that's very close to what I got also. Of course each rifle will vary slightly and then through in the variables of cases, lots of powder, different primers etc. and that is why leoparddog should work up his own load . I was refering to the Lyman 311041 cast soft and GC'd weighing around 177 gr fully dressed. Obviously the load is going to be slightly different than yours or leoparddog's as we both suggest.

I use the 311041 sized .311 with Javelina lube and Horndy and now my own home made GCs. I mostly use WLRs but the last year or so we can't be choosey and I use what's been available. I use US M118 LC cases that are well fire formed for the rifle (I have 6 .308W/7.62s). With the very low end loads such as these I also dedicate cases and drill the flash holes out. This gets the flash to the powder better and the primer explosian doesn't drive the case forward setting back the shoulder and causing headspace issues.

I also don't use the filler with these light loads. I never use a wad anymore (Hot Core has a basic comprehension dysfunction as to the difference between a wad and a filler). The recommendation for the filler to leoparddog was with the use of medium burning powders. With the use of those and keeping the velocity under 2100 fps the loading density is much less than 80%. Thus the use of the filler enhances ignition, gives more uniform velocities, keeps the hot gases off the base of the bullet and improves accuracy. With small doses of the correct fast burning powders such as Unique the filler is not needed and should not be used.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

(Hot Core has a basic comprehension dysfunction as to the difference between a wad and a filler).
Larry Gibson[/QUOTE]

Larry

I saw a picture of Hotsh$t lying on his back trying to fire out some filler on the Lead Sled thread. Perhaps he got a misfire there and is still in pain. Who knows?...............Who cares?????????

quote:

Originally posted by TEANCUM:

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:

(Hot Core has a basic comprehension dysfunction as to the difference between a wad and a filler).
Larry Gibson

Larry

I saw a picture of Hotsh$t lying on his back trying to fire out some filler on the Lead Sled thread. Perhaps he got a misfire there and is still in pain. Who knows?...............Who cares?????????[/QUOTE]

He must have been hunting elk....with the "filler"?

Larry Gibson