I want to drive a 410 grain bullet as fast as possible in a TC Encore, 20 inch barrel. Must stay within Encore pressure limits which I think is 50,000 psi for that cartridge. Can seat the bullet shallow.

Looking for 2000 fps.

Does anyone have any experience/suggestions for the best powder for this?
Thanks, Brian

the hodgdon annual manual gives cfe blk 52 grains with 400 gr. sierra bullet. 1760 fps. 40,900 psi in a 10 inch barrel. in the 500S&W magnum. cfe blk might get you there. best I can find in my books,hope this helps.

Since i could chose my own bullet i set it at 1" long and seated it .3"

As close to 50kpsi as i could get, for as close to a full case and as close to full burn:
44 grains Winchester 296 = 2030fps
39 grains Vv N110 = 1915fps
40 grains Reload Swiss RS 30 = 1926fps
42 grains IMR 4227 = 1878fps
43 grains LilGun = 1993fps
36 grains Alliant 2400 = 1903fps
40 grains Accurate 4100 = 1894fps

All curtesy of QL, you should try it.

Start at least 5 grains above said loads, compress heavily and replace rifle if nessesary ;-)

Hey...DON'T THINK... KNOW...I've already had one T/C 500 S&W Mag barrel crack between the scope mount screw holes. It was replaced...BUT they were very pissy about it until I threatened to fill the web with pictures and explanations.

The people I talked to at first were TOTAL IDIOTS with SFB, they were going to give me a "BARGAIN" and sell me another barrel for $125.00. I was told it was "a buildup OF LEAD"...UNTIL I TOLD THEM no lead bullet had ever been shoot through that barrel, then the subject was changed rapidly. Wasn't until it was sent to the lab where they could bore scope it and test the steel I guess, that they ponied up a replacement barrel.

Look up the pressure limits on WIKI and/or SAAMI to be certain...this is ONE toy you can really mess up with by guessing and use load data from online Hodgdon or Hornady...STAY THE HE** AWAY FROM ONLINE "HELP"

I DON'T give out SPECIFIC reloading information for JUST THIS REASON...BUT...

I used LiL'Gun for light bullets, 300-350 gr, but it is a bit touchy pressure wise, max pressures comes at about 80% density where as RL-7 is ≈100% load at LESS pressure so I went to slightly slower burning, more filling powders like RL-7 and AA1680...velocities were hardly affected.

For the heavier ones H/IMR 4227 will get you almost 2200 with 440 LFNGC Bear Tooth as will RL-7, AA1680 and WW 269/H110 safely depending on your ACTUAL case volume YOU have to measure and YOUR BULLET SEATING DEPTH.

I have molds for a 375 and 500 gr LFNGC and several commercial jacketed from 300 to 500 gr and I like BT's 350 and 440 LFNGC's.

I replaced the plastic stock/forend with a thumbhole Walnut set. Even with a MB it's HARD to hold the better shaped and hand filling wood forend down against recoil as it's very quick.

It's a bit of a roundy-roundy to pull the empty and insert a fresh round as the extractor hangs in the rim recess and also pushes upward against the case and also against a new round going in.

AND DANE...DON'T EVEN JOKE ABOUT THIS PARTICULAR ACCIDENT READY TO HAPPEN...IT AIN'T FUNNY HAVING A T/C DO ALMOST EXACTLY THAT WITH A LOAD THAT WAS SUPPOSED TO BE IN THE 50 KPSI RANGE, and I've been at this game 60 odd years so I do know a thing or two about being SAFE AND RELOADING.

I think the T/C's barrel is way too thin just below the mount screw holes for this cartridge...the mouth of the case ends right in the middle of the forward two holes and all you have to do is some simple measuring to get a case of the "shriveled balls".

FWIW...I think the 460 S&W would be a better choice as the case is longer and puts the case mouth about 0.150" BEYOND those screw holes so the peak pressure spike is farther down the chamber and is supported by a full barrel diameter...it is ALSO smaller in diameter which adds to the "barrel meat".

After the bullsh** with S&W I'm done with S&W and only will buy barrels from Bullberry or EABCO..and I have 4 other Encore and Contender setups.

I don't load above 50 KPSI in this platform and RL-7 gives me 2000 to 2100 fs depending on the bullet weight/brand/type and seating depth...BELOW that pressure. That means ≈4000 #ft or a bit above for most of the bullet weight...how much more do you need and what the he** are you hunting.

The various powders for this cartridge are considered "FAST" and it doesn't take much of an increase to spike pressures beyond limits...

Good Hunting and BE CAREFUL.

Thank you all for your input.

Nonagonagin. You give good advice, thanks.

I will be hunting cape buffalo. That is about all I hunt in Africa anymore. I use a single shot converted 10 ga H&R shotgun. ( have some decent big bore rifles but I like experimenting.)

This year I hunted 4 old cape buffalo with my H&R single shot.
- One with a .577 NE 700 grain Peregrine Bushmaster bullet at 1700 fps. DRT.
- One with a .577 NE 600 gain. CEB Raptor at 1900 fps. DRT
- two with a single shot custom chambered (bore size .500) 50-110 Winchester. 410 CEB Raptor at 1940 fps. One was DRT and one went 10 steps.

All were shoulder shots at close range. Non were heart shots.

So, I know that I can kill cape buffalo quickly with the 410 CEB Raptor at 1900 - 2000 fps.
I also appreciate what you are saying about the TC Encore being pressure sensitive. But it is not quite as weak as the H&R Handi Rifle.

Most folks view the 500s&w as a pistol cartridge, which it is. I am hoping to get a bit more speed out of it in the 20 inch barrel. The go-to pistol powders like H110, Enforcer, 296, N110, Lil'Gun seem to run out of steam at 14 inches of barrel.( But maybe not with 400+ grain bullets as you mention.)
I was hoping that someone has tried slower, lower pressure, powders like N130 etc., IMR 3031 or something. I have lots of powder I could try, but it's winter out there so I am living pretty close to the stove.

Interesting/useful what you say about Re-7 and AA1680 IMR 4227 and 296/H110 with heavy bullets.

That is serious stuff about splitting your barrel. Good lesson for all of us.

I see what you mean about the screw holes and the end of the case. Thanks for the heads up.

I like what you have to say about Rel-7 at 2000fps. I have proven that works with the CEB Raptor as discussed above. ( I and the two Ph's felt that the .500 cal., 410 grain CEB Raptor at 1940 fps killed better than a 458 WM solid. The tissue damage from the Raptor is impressive!)

Do you think that Benchmark or IMR 3031 would be any good in this application?

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Phil, CFE BLK is new to me and it looks like it might be perfect. It may be a compressed load but I will work to it with caution. I seat the 410 grain raptor shallow at a depth of .357".

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Dane, thanks for the info. All those loads would do the trick. Yes I should get QL, for sure.
I can seat the CEB 410 Raptor out at .357 deep and it will get me more powder room.


Thanks again to everybody, Brian

PS. If it interests anybody, the story "Did You Hear the Ox Pecker", that I posted in the Africa Hunting section in AR, about three weeks ago, is about the above buffalo kill with the .577 NE using the 700 grain Peregrine Bush Master bullet. B.

PS. PS,

The story is posted on Nov 13 in The African Big game Hunting section of AR. "Brians 2018 buffalo hunting story."

OH, YEAH...you might need all you whop you can get...forgot to mention CFE BLK...that powder just showed up in my neck of the woods and the 2018 Hodgdon reloading booklet has some interesting data for the 500.

Both of those powders are too slow to produce significant velo/energy...case volume to low.

WHICH powder depends on seating depth to a large extent...WHERE the bullet hits the lands, bullet nose profile, weight, amount of drag etc all contribute to USABLE case volume so the only way to know is to research to find the best VMD/density/burn rate and then test or find a reputable source for an already-been-done safe load. With case/bullet volume/diameter the gain/loss can be on the lower side so the powder to use in hot climes should be on the temp-don't-bother-me-at-all side.

CEB Raptors are bad to the bone as many mono's are...basically a bunch of razor blades up front. I'm way too cheap to buy them just to test but I've turned a few on my manual lathe and copied/designed a few 45 cal's. About all I can say is they DID hit my 4' x 4' sand trap but not much upset...did dig a deep hole tho'. I've used the plastic tips in cast lead bullets...basically a TOTAL PITA to make one bullet but they DO increase the BC somewhat and still give a relatively large meplat if/when the tip comes off.

I wish they had some .452 SOCOM type bullets for my AR 450 Bushmaster...TOTALLY BA-DAZZZ...I MIGHT see my way to loosening my money belt Maybe shoving them through a .452 sizer or making a collet to hold the nose wile I shave off a couple thou.

Too many dreams...not enough time...Hahahahahahaa

Good Hunting

One other thing you might consider when playing with the T/C Encore 500 S&W Mag...the rear most forend mount just in front of the frame...measure the depth and do the calculations...it comes out somewhere around 0.035" and 0.040" times the OD for a #8 screw, 0.164" to find the area and run it through QL for ≈1.5" down the barrel the decide if ≈62 KPSI is an appropriate max pressure to play with.

Even with the screw acting like a partial solid plug It gives me pause to consider just what the heck I'm doing. It would be nice to know the tensile/yield strength of the barrel steel...or not.

Good Hunting

Nonagonagin, Yes that is interesting. I am going to keep the pressure at max 50- KPSI.
The 410 gr. 500 cal CEB Raptor killed so well at 1,940 FPS on three buffalo, it was a pleasant surprise. (That is even lower velocity than the B&M 500 Super Short with the same bullet.) That's why I killed there buffalo with that bullet, just in case it was no fluke. ( I had other bullets that I wanted to test.)

One buffalo was standing in front of a tree and I had to put the bullet about 4-5 inches further forward than I wanted to. That buffalo took about 10 steps and went down as I mentioned above. The other two buffalo that I hit in the middle of the shoulder just stood there for a second, like they were electrocuted, then tried to take a step and crashed straight down like a piano pushed off the back of a truck.

I wanted to test these bullets in a level comparison so I hit each one broadside in the middle of the shoulder, not in the heart which I always try to do if I can.

Same with the 577 NE with the 700 gr. Peregrine Bush Master and the 600 gr. CEN Raptor, only more so.
If it wasn't for this experience with the "little" 410 gr. Raptor, I would not have considered trying it with a 500S&W Encore next time.

While most hunter know this I should mention that the typical reaction of a mature cape buffalo when hit in the heart or chest it that they lurch, turn and run/ buck for about 30 yds. In Saeed's post about hitting two buffalo with a "Proper Buffalo Rifle", they are hit with a good bullet and are dead right there. That is outstanding, I think.

YEAH...it's always about putting the bullet where it does then most good...prang'um so they go to sleep...QUICKLY...and use a good bullet. WHAT a "good" bullet is, is always argumentative and subject to "subjectivity", I use what I use that has worked for me and don't argue the point. I've had "dead" things jumps up and attack and when it is a mad rabbit with razors on four feet, it definitely makes for the need of 3 fingers of something stronger than milk...not that I was skeer'd or nutt'n, you understand...

I wish the Encore had something more than those two #8 screws for holding in the forend. I usually make dove-tail nuts and cut a slot on the Handi rifles I've messed with...and the early Contenders had a nice setup. I have three #10 flat head, socket head cap screws plus nuts staring at me right now...waiting for me to make a decision...AND it to warm up enough to get into my shop to do some milling.

The 500 Encore will do the velo's you are talking about well below the 50 K mark with the bullets you are using...I don't see any problems.

It's all about perspective...I've seen moose poleaxed with a 250 Savage, 100 gr bullets and coyotes run off with 7mm RM 140 holes in them literally spraying blood and guts everywhere...and expire after ≈80 yds all bled out. Go figure

Good Hunting

quote:

Originally posted by Brian Canada:
Does anyone have any experience/suggestions for the best powder for this?

I would suggest W296 or AA1680. The AA1680 might be easier to guess a starting load in a weak action as W296 does not always work well with reduced charges. I use 297 and 680 in something similar with heavier bullets:

510WSM

http://forums.accuratereloadin.../6521043/m/472101969

JPL, Thanks. I agree. I will also try CFE BLK. Brian

510 WSM...that's a good one, JPL. How is it working for you????

I looked at .500 and .510 bullets and that case plus the Lapua, Rigby and Gibbs cases back then. Designed several iterations and checked out the already been done ones...dies for the larger cases, the cases themselves, .500/.510 barrel and reamer costs put those on the back burner for just a play toy. Glad the 500 S&W Mag came out, later.

I DID build a 510 Rigby using my own design...took almost one year to get the dies done. and needed a separate spacer/adapter to fit my RCBS Rockchucker press. Works very well with 525 gr Cast GC bullets...not bad with 650 G.I. popped bullets...I NEED a lead sled to handle those and heavier slugs even with a 13# rifle.

I like a full case of powder so those powders, while are usable, don't fit my plan...85% or less powder density is on the wrong side of the fence for me.

Good Hunting

I ordered some Hodgdon CFE BLK. I will let you know how it goes. brian