I'm looking for a spotting scope for target work, not hunting. The chore is to see .257" holes at 300 yds. Since I can't really test this before buying one, I was hoping there might be some knowledge of what brands, magnification, etc you all can recommend as well as what to avoid. I don't want to get a second mortgage to finance it, though. Thanks!

I honestly don't think thats going to happen at 300 yards. At least not all the time.

it can happen but not cheaply. I believe you're going to end up at swarovski's door. 300 is a long way to see bullet holes, especially in the black and more so if the group is good. My swaro will let me do it, but my leupold or old B&L won't

I agree w/muzzle based on personal experience. However, I note butcloc's comments and perhaps he is correct, too, but if so, it is possibly due to location. FWIW, here is my experience:

In 1983 I organized and ran the highpower rifle competition (NRA Cross the course) for our local gun club. Our range was limited to 200 yards and we had no pits, so targets had to be shot and scored "on the frames". That is, the entire 22 rounds slow fire prone (2 sighters and then 20 shots for record), then we would go downrange and score the targets.

Therein lies the problem in that, often, the bullet holes in the black could not be seen at 200 yards with even the best scope on the line. Shooting blind was not conducive to decent scores, so we (individually and collectively) began to experiment in upgrading both individual and club equipment.

To make a long story short, I went through 3 scopes(Inexpensive Bushnel, Unertl,and what many HP shooters at that time considered to be the top of the line, Kowa). The results, no silver ring. None of these scopes would reliably spot .30 caliber holes in the black @ 200 yds. The problem was the heavy mirage we experience in S. Texas.

I notice that muzzle is from AZ and butch is from Mn. Perhaps this is the difference; maybe you guys up north are not faced with as heavy mirage as we have in the SW.

The quest did not end w/my personal scope. I convinced the club to invest in a Unertl 100mm Team Scope. Now this is the scope used by US All Army Team, so it must be the very best; right? It was about 3ft. long and came in a chest the size of a footlocker. The tripod is of the type used for surveyor's transits. Still no prize! Can't see .30 cal bullet holes @ 200 yards. Yes, there were days when we could see the holes with the team scope, and I have even seen .30 holes in my target @300 yards with both my Unertl and Kowa, but not in S. Tx.

The solution was the club sold the (expensive) team scope and a few years later, we built a 600 yd. range, complete w/target pits. Problem solved.

Hope a good scope will serve you well up north, but don't expect too much if you bring it to S. Tx. (and apparently AZ as well).

Regards,
hm

I got one of these about a month ago and couldn't be happier. I don't think it can be beat for the money. A "BIG" 80mm bell brings in lot of light.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Celestron-Ultima-80-Spotting-Scope-...eZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem

I shoot at orange dots on white tag board...makes seeing holes alot easier. 300 yds would be no problem for this scope. Our reange only goes to 200 yds. I use the 2" orange dots with the diamond in the middle and those dots have a fine cross hair line going to the points of the diamond.....well....I can see the fine lines at 200 yds.
I learned about this good value on a chat room a year or so back...everyone who got one loved it.

Hey Captain, Quite a few years ago a friend and I were shooting on one of the old Plantations I have access to.

He had a Bull Barrelled 25-06 M700 Sendero with a Zeiss scope of some kind on it. He was telling me he wanted to learn how to shoot w--a--y out yonder, so we go to a suitable part of the Plantation and begin getting set up.

I had a collapsable Target Frame made from PVC and could drive down the edge of the field to locate it at any distance he would want to try it. Also had a nice portable bench and some good solid old chairs.

He had the 25-06 sighted on paper at 25yds at his house, so we get it all ready to go at 100yds. Went fine and didn't need any additional magnification over the rifle scopes.

We discussed where to go next and 300yds sounded like a reasonable distance. Before we went though, he said, "I have a BIG surprise for you!" And he reaches in his truck and comes out with some kind of long Telescope that was intended for kids to look at the Moon and Stars. It was in a Plastic housing and he told me he had gotten it for nearly nothing at a Pawn Shop.

I was wondering about Parallax on it and what we would actually be able to see at 300yds and beyond. I messed with it a bit and noticed it sure was "shakey" looking through it at trees - rightfully so with whatever Power it was. The small breeze we had was enough to set it into a slight movement. Got to figuring we would need a gross of Aspirin to use it.

So, he tells me he is going to go down and move the Frame. Sounds fine to me and I'll focus on scrubbing one of my barrels in the back of my truck.

Next thing I knew, I heard Plastic SMASHING and he had run over the Telescope while backing up. Don't know if it would have worked or not, but it sure was funny back then. Come to think of it, it is still funny today.

I need to go call him anyhow, and that will be sure to get him fired up.

Best of luck to you.

At least he got it for nearly nothing. Last year a buddy of mine went dove shooting. Took his gear and guns out of the rig and got back in to move it. As he was backing up, he realized the crunch he heard was the Lefever that he had left on the ground behind the rig. Ruined his whole day.

I did forget to mention that I would be using a white background to shoot at. I have trouble seeing holes at 100 yds when they are in the black. Thanks for the link kraky - the price is right on those if the clarity is there.

Hot Core- I didn't think of getting a cheap telescope. Other than the size, the power is great. Heck, you can get a 200X telecope for $150 at Walmart. Hmmm...

This past summer I used two (2) Leica APO Televid 77's w/ 20x60 eyepieces, for wildlife surveys. During this time I bought a Pentax PF 80ED and the gargantuan Pentax PF 100ED spotters with 20x60 eyepieces.
The Pentax PF 100ED is in a class by itself. The brightness is to die for. Unfortunately, you will need a good tripod and head to hold it, as small breezes will cause it to move.
The Pentax PF 80ED is brighter than the Leica, and both are just as sharp in terms of resolution. I have noticed with my Pentax PF80 that when adjusting the eyepiece, the scene in the scope moves around ever so slightly, and this does not happen with the Leica.
If you focus on a spot to razor sharpness with the Pentax, then look out towards the edges, it is not as sharp, it takes about 2* turn on the focus to bring it in. This is not noticable unless you are actually looking for it, but I was looking for it since I had all four of these scopes to use for four months.
The Pentax PF100 is simply too big for anything but almost stationary work. The Leica's are wonderful, but cost $2,500.00 USD. I settled on the Pentax PF80ED for $799.00. If the Leica is a perfect 100%, then the Pentax is 98%, and that is not in terms of cost.

I bought the scope from a fellow who posts here often in the optics section. I will try to dig up his contact info and forward it to you.
Found it: gr8fuldoug@aol.com

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
I did forget to mention that I would be using a white background to shoot at. I have trouble seeing holes at 100 yds when they are in the black. ...

That will help a lot. We had no choice as to target colors used in NRA approved matches.

One thing you can do should you run into problems is to put up a target backer. Since our targets had to be black & white, we would have used a bright color to help reflect more light through the bullet holes. Had it not been such a logistical nightmare due to the number of targets involved, we thought about using a dayglo (sp?) orange backer which should make holes more visible in both the white and black. This would be rather easy to do with only one target.

Another thing you can do to make holes more visible is to mount target on target cloth or some other material that will not close up after bullet passes, thereby restricting light passage. Cardboard or celotex are often used to mount targets, but definately make the holes harder to spot under difficult conditions.

Regards,
hm

I have a kowa tsn-821 that I love,,with a 27x l.e.r. eye piece,,Easily picks up .223 holes fro the 300 line,,for the best price you want to talk to Jim Owens,, www.jarheadtop.com Clay

quote:

Originally posted by the_captain:
Hot Core- I didn't think of getting a cheap telescope. Other than the size, the power is great. Heck, you can get a 200X telecope for $150 at Walmart. Hmmm...

Hey Captain, If you go this route, look from one end of the store to the other and see if it will Focus clearly. I don't know if the one my buddy had would Focus properly at a relatively close distance(compared to the moon) or not. It didn't last long enough to find out.

Captain, I have a real easy solution for you, and it costs a lot less than a new spotting scope. It is called a Shoot-N-C target. I don't know why some folks are resistant to using these things, but as one of my hunting friends says, those targets and boresnakes are the 'best things since girls'..... maybe that's a little over-rated, but it shows his support of those products!

I shoot targets other than Shoot-N-C targets, and I have a Swaro spotting scope, I can see 25 cal holes at 300, but I use white plastic sign board for backers, and 'True Blue' targets if I'm not using Shoot-N-C's.

I'm not sure what your trying to accomplish with your shooting, but those damn Caldwell Shoot-N-C targets are great for dialing in a rifle or developing a load anyway....I use one of the aforementioned white plastic sign boards with a bunch of the 1" Shoot-N-C dots on it for load development, and it's easy to see a hit or a miss way out there with that setup.

I obviously like good high end optics, but I think the right target can be just as helpful....I'll try to post a pic of one of my load development targets later, and it is a good example of a 300 yard target that it is easy to see holes in.

Here ya go!


Good Luck--Don

I've got a old bausch & lomb criterion it has
a 8in reflective objective lens it was made for
star gazing some of them come with a motor drive
mine did not it fits on a regular tripod there
were different lens available, it is also very
heat sensitive check e-bay you might find one

Claybuster, thanks for the tip. I have ordered the Konus from Jim. I need to resolve 22 cal. holes at 200 yards.
Peter.

A couple of years ago, Midway or one of their competitors was selling Nikon Earth and Sky telescopes and I bought one for $150. It is the best investment I every made. I want to say it is 20x but it might be 15x; however, I can see my 308 holes at 300 yards on white paper.

I "googled" Nikon Earth and Sky and they had several for sale. One was 15-45x60 variable with a tripod for $300.

My experience is that I can see the holes in the white if anyone can see 'em. Sometimes our mirage is awful, and then noone can see squat. Kudude

Good points have been made here:
Mirage can ruin the day for the best of scopes.
Use white backgrounds if you want to see black holes.
The shoot-n-see targets can help tremendously.
Leica Televids are great and Doug has good prices on them.

I use Swaro scopes and binoculars but I prefer the Televid spotters. You'll wish you bought the APO if you don't.
.....................DJ

I use a Leica Televid 77 (non APO) that I can see .270 (smallest I've been shooting lately)holes with at 300 and 400 meters no problem. For range work Its probably overkill in the durability category but the resolution is worth it. I've also had the opportubity to use and evaluate the PF 80ED as well. It is exceptional but a bit larger than the Leica or Swaro spotters. As mentioned above, whichever you choose you need a very solid tripod and head to support these spotters to eliminate vibration.