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Another thread prompted me to start this one. I know theyre out there, Id like a list of all of them... Rlr 15 was designed with the 308 in mind was it not? What about 30-06? Im guessing that several powders were designed with military chamberings in mind in attempt to win over government contracts. Anybody have some info in this reguard?? | ||
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I do not think an authoritative, complete, listing of what you are looking for currently exists. You can begin to build your own list of that information by reading Phil Sharpe's book "Complete Guide to Handloading". That will bring you from circa 1890 up to about 1947 on the subject. Since 1947, I don't believe anyone outside the ammunition-manufacturing industry or powder industry has been priveleged to share a comprehensive listing of that information. Such a listing does exist, but the only copy I have ever seen was in the hands of Eric Lufty, owner of Thunderbird Cartridge Company Inc, of Phoeniz, Arizona. It was in the mid-1980s and I do not know if Eric assembled it himself (it was in a loose-leaf binder), whether it has been added to since then, or how one might ever gain access to it. So, I guess occasional snippets of info run onto both by original research and by luck would have to be gathered over an etensive period of time to make anything like a complete listing. Even if you had such a collection of information, I am not sure that any current firearms publisher would want to put it into print because of the litigious nature of American society and the real or imagined possibility of misuse. So, you might want to consider the extent it might be of use to you alone, before expending the time and effort to gather it. I am NOT saying you shouldn't, and I'd certainly like to have a copy of Eric's book, but I don't have enough use for it to make it worth the time involved to gather it on MY own. | |||
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Somchem (a South African parastatal) developed S341 specifically for the .308 Win (FN / FAL) in the days of the bush war. S355 was developed as a solution for out-there reloaders (myself included  ) who had started developing duplex loads (S341 / S335) to make the best use of the heavy .375 bullets which became available a few years back. | |||
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H380 was the Hodgden powder developed for 22-250 remington | |||
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AA 1680 was developed specifically for the 7.62x39. MagPro was designed for the Short Mags. | |||
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Hodgdons H50BMG was developed specifically for the 50 caliber cartridge. Accurate 2230 was developed specifically for the .223 Alliant 2400 was originally developed for the .22 Hornet. Red C. Everything I say is fully substantiated by my own opinion. | |||
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On the other side of the coin, I just read an article on the new Hornady 6.5 Creedmoor. According to them (Hornady), one of the design parameters was the abilty for the cartrigde to be handloaded with cannister powders rather than some "secret" powder only availabe to ammo makers. | |||
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Thanks for the replies guys and keep um coming. Maybe we can put together something usefull ourselves as a cooperative effort. When I get some time Im going to see what I can find myself. Right now Im off to work.. | |||
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I don't think you will find many powder makers willing to restrict their potential market to that degree. You can find instances where they have said a powder was designed with a particular family of cartridges or range of bore sizes in mind. One of the more recent being Alliant's RL 10x was touted as being designed with the small bore light bullet in mind. Hodgon and IMR have also made some similar advertisements. If the enemy is in range, so are you. - Infantry manual | |||
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Actually Hodgdon 380 was neither developed nor made by Hodgdon, nor was it originated for the .22-250. When Bruce Hodgdon got a large supply of it as military surplus, he tried it in the .22-250 and found 38.0 grains of it produced approximately 3,800+ f.p.s.....and became his favorite load for his .22-250. Hence the name he used for wholesaling/retailing it. Incidentally, that load can be a little hot in some .22-250's with 55 grain bullets. | |||
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I would never restrict myself to such a list. For every powder developed with a specific cartridge in mind, I'm sure it works as well, if not better, in some other cartridge and 2400 is an excellent example of such. If one considers the smokeless powder center fire cartridge revolutionary, then the offspring thereof (and the propellant behind it) must be considered evolutionary. A good example is the switch in service cartridges from 30-06 to 308. True, 4895 works in both, but it's probably not the best choice. A less obvious and probably better example is the 5.56X45/223, where the M193 evolved into the M855. They share a common case, but not much else. | |||
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Well, right off the top of my head, I know of two such powders - IMR 4895 was originally developed for the M2 Ball loading of the .30/'06 for use in the M1 Garand rifle. IMR 7828 was developed for the 7mm Remington Magnum. In additon, there were several early smokeless powders developed for use in the .30/40 Krag round, and some of these were carried over into early loadings of the M 1906 round for the '03 Springfield AFTER they were converted from .30/'03 to .30/'06. These were the WA and Pyro DG powders. I don't know much abot these two..... As mentioned above, more detailed info can be found in Phil Sharpe's book, but not for the more recent powders. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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I seem to be remembering that DuPont 4831 is what was in the canvas bags that got loaded into battleship guns. Can anyone verify or refute? Either will be fine. No mention of BL-C(2) that was loaded in 7.62 NATO and then imposed on the 5.56? ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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As far as I know, IMR 4831 was manufactured and sold as a reloading powder for the first time in 1973. The 4831 that Bruce Hodgdon was selling early on was different stuff, I think. | |||
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According to IMR, the stuff dates back to WW2, of DuPont mfr as I recall. Hodgdon bought up this powder as surplus, putting himself in the powder business, IIRC. ________________________ "Every country has the government it deserves." - Joseph de Maistre | |||
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Buckshot, The idea of such a list isnt to limit oneself but juat to be informed. Obviously a lot of such info would be outdated. Ive been looking at a few references and it seems hard to find any caliber specific data. Most references are generalizations involving several calibers. Ive also learned that at least some powders nowadays, (probably most of them) are NOT cartridge specific but are lab tested with multipule calibers. But here are a few that Ive found. H335 was made for the 5.56 NATO (223) BLC-2 7.62 Nat0 AA 2230 and 2230 were both made for the223. aa 2495 and 2520 were both "designed around" the 308. AA 3100 "appears" to have been made with both the 264 Win and 7mm Mag in mind. ?? IMR 4320 "originally designed for military match ammunition" (reference doesnt state further specifics). ?? VV N120, N133, and N130 were made for the 5.56 NATO. VV N135 was made for the 7.62. Some of what I found has already been mentioned. | |||
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I cant find anything definative, but It seems to me that both IMR and Hodgon made several powders designed for the 06. Im guessing that 4350 and 4831 were a few. Probably H414 as well. Can anyone confirm that? | |||
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First off, Hodgdon was not a powder manufacturer until they recently bought IMR. Though they have sold many powders made all over the world since Bruce started the business after WW II, they were a seller but not a maker or designer of powders. Secondly, 4831 was an extruded powder made by Dupont primarily for the 20 m/m anti-aircraft shells used in WWII by the U.S. It is essentially the same powder as Dupont 4350, but with approx 5% more burning deterrant by weight to slow the burning rate down. When Dupont brought out "IMR 4831" they CLAIMED it was the same formula as the original 4831 which had been sold by Hodgdon as H-4831. Dupont "SAID" that the new stuff burned faster because it still had most all the volatiles (easily ignited gases & solvents) in it which could not be readily removed, and that if it aged 30 years, it would become the same burning speed as the older (Hodgdon sold) stuff, because the volatiles would vaporize off over time. I'm not a full believer in that statement, but that IS what Dupont said. | |||
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The 4831 that was marketed by Hodgdon originally was made during WWII for 20mm aircraft cannon ammo. (It is way too fast for use in 16" battleship guns!!) When supplies of surplus 4831 ran out, Hodgdon had it newly made commercially, and this new powder is supposed to duplicate the performance of the old surplus powder. The IMR version of 4831 is supposedly made to the original specifications of the powder when it was newly made during WWII, whereas the Hodgdon version was supposedly slower by the time Hodgdon got it to market after the war, the powder having lost some of its' original energy content due to aging. Therefore, what we have today are two different powders, with the IMR4831 being faster than the H4831. It seems to me that IMR4831 is not alot slower than IMR 4350, but H4831 is considerably slower. It takes about 4 more grains of H4831 in .30/'06 size cases to give the same MV you get with specific charges of IMR 4350, and the H4831 does it at a lower pressure. "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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IMR 3031 is useful in a lot of loads... but it sure is awfully good with any bullet weight in the 7 x 57, especially if you have one that wont shoot well...it really tightens it up substantially.... Life Member: The American Vast Right Wing Conspiracy Jan 20, 2009.. Prisoner in Dumocrat 'Occupied America', Partisan in the 'Save America' Underground Beavis..... James Beavis..... Of Her Majesty's Secret Service..... Spell Check Division "Posterity — you will never know how much it has cost my generation to preserve your freedom. I hope you will make good use of it." John Quincy Adams A reporter did a human-interest piece on the Texas Rangers. The reporter recognized the Colt Model 1911 the Ranger was carrying and asked him "Why do you carry a 45?" The Ranger responded, "Because they don't make a 46." Duhboy....Nuttier than Squirrel Poop... | |||
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In one of Jack O'Connor's books, don't recall the title, he told of a question he received. Someone had obtained some "battleship" gun powder. It was the size of "inkwells." His inquirer had run it thru his wife's meat grinder to reduce its size so he could get it into the cases of sporting calibers... He wanted to know how much of this reduced / grained powder to load... .30/'06 I believe... !!! (No answer given). So I am inclined to believe the large gun powder bags have pieces inside much larger than 4831... One name gunsmith was telling of conferring with some powder experts. Yes, the WW II 4831 was made for WW II and not available to the public until after WW II. The original surplus was marketed as a great powder for '06. It was o.k for a short time, then... Many buyers were not happy. Explanation? "Stick powders" like IMR's are "hygroscopic." They "suck" water out of the air (humidity) and absorb it and the burn rate slows down. In this condition, slower burning, it was perfect for the .270 WCF and "made" that rifle's rep... Col. Nonte in one of his books goes over powder manufacture. Point is that when the makings are loaded and the machinery started there is no "certainty" what will come out the other end. Yes, they will know if it will be ball or stick and approx size... 4227 vs. 4831, BUT the actual "powder" is not known until the process is finished. IF the run happens to be near the standard for a "commercial canister powder" then it is set aside and blended for "canning" for commercial sale/use. Otherwise the run is sold by the train car load to an ammo maker who has a lab, works up loads, loads a million rounds or so at a time... etc. luck | |||
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You are certainly correct about the size of 16" gun powder "granules"! They are the size of a coffee mug! Old George Nonte was a good man, but I don't think he ever made Colonel.......... "Bitte, trinks du nicht das Wasser. Dahin haben die Kuhen gesheissen." | |||
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And smokeless stick powders are not hygroscopic to any significant degree. They are actually "water-dryed" during manufacturing. That is, they are soaked in vats of water numerous times to get rid of the acids and solvents used in their manufacture. Then they are air dryed, but not with bone-dry air. Leaving them sit around in open containers will slow their buring rates over time, but more from letting the volatiles evaporate off than from picking up water from the air. | |||
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