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| I use a Sinclair gauge. The RCBS is not as smooth.
You probably have less than .003" runout out of the FL die. Your case holder may be crooked, and the runout you see is not from the case itself.
Speaking of runout, I just received my custom RCBS neck ream die for my 22-250. What used to be as much as .007" runout with my R-P brass became .003" or less. Every neck is now the same. The extra step takes less time than neck turning. I am very, very happy. |
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| I also noticed that The necks trim unevenly. One side of the brass is longer than the other. Will this cause accuracy problems due to uneven neck tension? |
| | | Posts: 428 | Location: Bozeman, MT | Registered: 04 January 2005 | 
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| I wouldn't worry about the runout until after you fireform the case and both before and after sizing. This may tell you if your die is causing any problems. Several suppliers have runout guages. Ralph, I believe if you check with a ball mic you will find that inside reaming doesn't take care of neck wall thickness problems like neck turning does. For 1 MOA rifle probably makes no difference. If you don't have a good barrel, trigger, and bedding, the rest is a waste. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| It does too!
I tried both, and inside neck reaming reduced runout by 50%. Neck turning evened-up the neck wall thickness, but the runout remained the same.
The die works better when forming 22-250 from 243, however, because the die squeezes the neck before the reamer goes in, so the neck cannot flex. But if I'm gentle with the T-handle, the reamer evens-up thin necks as well. |
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| Our new brass is almost an embarrassment at times. Some of the necks are really lopside. I always neck size first, before loading. That helps some. Once the cases have been fireformed in your rifle you should be okay. I've switched to the slightly more expensive Lapua cases. They are amazingly uniform in length and weight, and the necks rarely require sizing when new. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes. Cal - Montreal
Cal Sibley
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| | | Posts: 1866 | Location: Montreal, Canada | Registered: 01 May 2003 |
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| Cal, I agree with you on the Lupua brass. I would probably use other brands if dog hunting or couldn't get Lupua. Ralph, if you turn the necks and fireform and you have runout, something is wrong with your chamber. If it runs out after sizing, I would send the dies back. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| My fired cases have .0005" runout from the chamber.
My FL sized brass has .001" runout from the die.
My loaded rounds used to have as much as .007" runout from the seater.
Now my loaded rounds average .002" and no more than .003" runout.
Inside neck reaming is way easier than neck turning, if you have an appropriate tool.
Mickeymouse jigs make reloading frustrating. |
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| Mr. Hrylik, your seater doesn't know if the necks are turned, reamed, or having had nothing done to them. If your cases runout .0005, and your sized ones runout .001, and are .002-.003 after seating then you need a good seating die.If Mickeymouse jigs make reloading frustrating, quit using them. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| Then how do you explain the magical improvement in runout, or lack thereof? |
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| It was always my understanding that inside neck reaming did absolutely nothing to improve case neck runout. Maybe I'm missing something here. I've switched to Redding S neck sizing, bushing dies sets and the Wilson knock out NS dies. That's about the best option we have, short of having the barel maker make you dies from the same stock as your barrel. Best wishes. Cal - Montreal
Cal Sibley
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| | | Posts: 1866 | Location: Montreal, Canada | Registered: 01 May 2003 |
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| The best luck I've had with runout reduction is with Lee Collet neck sizing. Tried the Redding S die with bushing and the runout was bad. I do turn the outside of the neck after the first firing and sizing with the collet die. Not willing to pay $160.00 for the inside reamer. 95% of my shells come out with .003 or less measured on the ogive of the bullet. Have to live with that. Without guns we are subjects, with guns we are citizens
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There are those who would misteach us that to stick in a rut is consistency - and a virtue, and that to climb out of the rut is inconsistency - and a vice.
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Chinese Proverb: When someone shares something of value with you and you benefit from it, you have a moral obligation to share it with others.
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| | | Posts: 2750 | Location: Houston, Tx | Registered: 17 January 2005 |
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| Mr. Hrylik, do you have your bullets into the lands when you fire them? Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| No, about 10-20 thousands off.
Incidentally, if runout is around .005" to .007", the round is difficult to chamber because the bullet is trying to get into a tight throat at an angle. Copper is shaved off one side of the bullet, and those shavings go down the bore. This is irritating.
By your question, I presume that you want to argue that the throat counteracts runout by straightening the bullet after it leaves the case? |
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| quote: Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr. Hrylik, your seater doesn't know if the necks are turned, reamed, or having had nothing done to them. If your cases runout .0005, and your sized ones runout .001, and are .002-.003 after seating then you need a good seating die.If Mickeymouse jigs make reloading frustrating, quit using them. Butch
getting a good seater I agree,a" good" seater will not to add runout... |
| | | Posts: 439 | Location: Quebec Canada | Registered: 27 August 2001 |
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| Is a wilson seater a good seater? |
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| No, We checked some at the benchrest match this weekend and the fit was sloppy on a sized round. Just like a SAAMI chamber is to fit all factory ammo, so is the Wilson. The best least expensive way is for the Harrell bros. to make you a die from your fired case and specify how much you mant to size the case. This is for your sizing die. I make my seating die with my chambering reamer. I have a Mitutoyo micrometer head working on a floating pin that presses on the bullet just short of the ogive. Of course the end of the .312 pin is drilled and angle bored so that it will not bear on the tip of the bullet. As I stated before this care is not necessary for a hunting gun, especially a factory gun with a factory chamber. I shoot all my rifles with the bullet seated to just touch the lands. If you are worried about pressure, back off your load. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| quote: Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:
No, about 10-20 thousands off.
Incidentally, if runout is around .005" to .007", the round is difficult to chamber because the bullet is trying to get into a tight throat at an angle. Copper is shaved off one side of the bullet, and those shavings go down the bore. This is irritating.
By your question, I presume that you want to argue that the throat counteracts runout by straightening the bullet after it leaves the case?
Make sure that the ring of your seater doesnt move and the seater is well fixed,(FL sizer the same thing)getting that "much runout"something is not well set.Wisson ,Lee,Rcbs etc...are "good seaters" if they dont add runout(".001"),"the best" butchlambert has mentioned it,must be expensive... |
| | | Posts: 439 | Location: Quebec Canada | Registered: 27 August 2001 |
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| I have a Redding competition seater and a Wilson also. Both are sloppy on a sized round. I guess that Neil Jones will be making my next seater.
But the neck reaming did reduce runout, no doubt about it. |
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| Ralph, the problem with the Neil Jones is the expense. Not only do you have to buy his micrometer die, you also have to buy bushings of his design to fit your case. This is on the seater and on his sizing die. They are his unique bushings and not interchangeable with the Wilson bushing. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| quote: Originally posted by butchlambert:
Ralph, the problem with the Neil Jones is the expense. Not only do you have to buy his micrometer die, you also have to buy bushings of his design to fit your case. This is on the seater and on his sizing die. They are his unique bushings and not interchangeable with the Wilson bushing. Butch
You can use that die say for a 6x250 etc just by changing the bushings so his die is exensive but if you look at all the calibers you can load off that die the cost is pretty cheap. I've got alot of Neil's dies both threaded and arbor type and my latest 30-378 will work on the RUM case and my 300wby will work on the 300mag and 30-338 plus others. I'm kind of surprise Butch that you don't support Neil's products maybe not since your pushing your thing.
VFW
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| Mr. Holland, I have nothing for sale. I make my own dies for my bench guns. I do not sell them. I chamber my own guns. I do not do it for money. I make my own gadgets for shooting. I don't do it for money. Neil makes fine products, but you see very few dies of his at the matches. I also don't think that I said anything about the quality of his products. I do have Neil's dies in 257 Roberts, 300 mag., and 6PPC. Do you better understand where I'm coming from? Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| Ralph, you are the very first person that I have heard say that they have had decent results curing runout by neck reaming. I have always heard that it does no good, and have never done it myself. I guess you can learn something new, even at my age. The best dies that I have always seem to be ones that I made using the same reamer that I chambered the barrel with. A friend of mine , for quite a while, used Mewlon die blanks to make up his dies. I never thought much of the idea, just because it is a screw in die, but I finally broke down and made one up for a 30X47 barrel that that I chambered and am really happy with it. I have a collection of them now, one for just about every reamer that I own. I have also made up a few arbor press type dies from scratch that I am also very happy with. It is interesting that you find that inside neck reaming does improve your run out problem.
Bob
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| | | Posts: 529 | Location: Harrison, Maine - Pensacola, Fl. | Registered: 18 January 2005 |
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| quote: Originally posted by butchlambert:
Mr. Holland, I have nothing for sale. I make my own dies for my bench guns. I do not sell them. I chamber my own guns. I do not do it for money. I make my own gadgets for shooting. I don't do it for money. Neil makes fine products, but you see very few dies of his at the matches. I also don't think that I said anything about the quality of his products. I do have Neil's dies in 257 Roberts, 300 mag., and 6PPC. Do you better understand where I'm coming from? Butch
Butch HI;you are making your own dies etc... are you a "gunsmith",looks like you got good knowledge about making your own reloading equipment.What do you think about Z-Hat dies from Zed Zeglin ... |
| | | Posts: 439 | Location: Quebec Canada | Registered: 27 August 2001 |
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| No, I am not a gunsmith. I do my own work and have a nice machine shop at my house. We have craftsmen on this forum that are real smiths. It would be a pleasure to be a cleanup boy in their shops. I'm sorry, I am unfamiliar with Mr.Zeglin. I would like to see his work. I do think that this thread has run its course though. Butch |
| | | Posts: 8964 | Location: Poetry, Texas | Registered: 28 November 2004 |
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| Would I be able to make my own dies on a mini-lathe? I was thinking along the lines of a Sherline or similar quality machine. |
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| quote: Originally posted by b beyer:
Ralph, you are the very first person that I have heard say that they have had decent results curing runout by neck reaming. I have always heard that it does no good, and have never done it myself. I guess you can learn something new, even at my age. The best dies that I have always seem to be ones that I made using the same reamer that I chambered the barrel with. A friend of mine , for quite a while, used Mewlon die blanks to make up his dies. I never thought much of the idea, just because it is a screw in die, but I finally broke down and made one up for a 30X47 barrel that that I chambered and am really happy with it. I have a collection of them now, one for just about every reamer that I own. I have also made up a few arbor press type dies from scratch that I am also very happy with. It is interesting that you find that inside neck reaming does improve your run out problem.
I also use the RCBS inside neck reaming die and find it reduces runout to almost nil in most of my cases which happen to be 300 Dakota. They are highly recommended. bigbull |
| | | Posts: 408 | Location: CANADA | Registered: 06 April 2004 |
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