I did a test to day.
I wanted to see how annealing the case necks would prevent neck spliting .
I did it like this.
I took a Lee 6,5*55 FL sizer die that works the brass quite hard and started size a ones fired Norma 6,5*55 cases in and out with inside lubrication evry 5th stroke, I did this test with two cases and they lasted for 41 and 46 strokes before the neck split.
Test two.
Now I did the same ting but that I annealed the neck evry 5th stoke and then lubed the case both insid and outside , the cases splitted at 44 and 48 strokes
Not a big improvment of life if you ask me ,the only improvment I can see is the neck tension aspect.
Any comments ?
Anders �sterberg

Back when I loaded the .222 with it's very thin neck I started annealing as they would split and the 06's would never split. After a while I gave up but I did not count like you but I agree with your result.

Maybe you could do the test over but use a scale somehow on the handle of your press. If you did not lubricate the inside of the necks it might simulate in some way the tension on a bullet.

My comment would be ...."So what! You got a little exercise, practiced your counting and wore-out some brass. Case necks are stressed much more when fired. If you want to run a test like this you will need to fire the round each time you resize and seat the bullet.....also, how did you do the annealing. In my experience about 75% of those who "anneal" either don't get the temperature right.

DB Bill
I know this was a simpel test but the way I see it the only thing to find out with shooting it for real must be that the cases fail in a faster phase but with the same outcome.
I did the annealing in Varmint Al style.

http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/arelo.htm#Anneal

If it good enough for you i dont know but that was how I did it.

Don Martin 29
The improvment I ment was ,I think that the neck tension will be more uniform if you anneal often.

+P - DB Bill was trying to be polite.

You can play with your brass and blowtorch all you want, however, your �test� simply does not hold up to over 75 years of shooting wisdom. Brass has been annealed for many years. Its benefits are very well documented.

Folks like BD Bill who shoot Lazzeroni cartridges and me who shoots Dakota cartridges will tell you from actual experience that annealing is necessary to extend case life. It works. It�s real. It�s even scientifically proven.

You can either not anneal and get 5 to 8 reloads before the neck splits or you can anneal and get 20+ loads from your brass. For most factory cartridge brass is so cheap that most don�t bother annealing. However start purchasing brass for 2 to 3 buck each and you will soon learn the benefits of annealing.

Zero & DB,

I just wish I knew an easy way to anneal correctly. I've seen the torch and tip in the A Square manual. And the finger tip one. Are these even close to being correct?

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:44: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

+P

The big thing (apart from not firing a load in the case)your test has left out is the time factor.

For example, if you go to the range and load a case and shoot it, then load it again and shoot it etc. the case will last many more shots than if the same case was reloaded every 3 months.

If you load the same case each time you shoot it annealing won't make the difference it makes when there is a time gap between loads. I have no idea what the required time is as my experience has mainly be where I am loading cases at the range or in the field OR they ar loaded a few months apart. Maybe the time gap is a week, 3 weeks, I don't know.

Mike

[ 08-31-2002, 07:28: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

From the Todd E handle:

I shoot a 416 Rigby hotter than hell and I get 20+ reloads out of my brass

I have news for whoever posted that message, unless you have cases made of steel, then you did not load hotter than hell if your cases go 20+ reloads.

Mike

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:45: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Loads as hot as hell expand primer pockets early.

Hot but useable loads would normally be thought of as producuing loose primer pockets at around 5 shots.

Hot as hell would be on maybe the 2nd shot.

All those numbers go up with steel cases.

If whoever is posting via the Todd E handle has book that has writing that would suggest case life is the same when cases are reloaded immiediatley after having been fired as compared to be being fired every few months, then a new book is needed.

[ 08-31-2002, 09:07: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Longbob - Annealing is child�s play. You don�t need any temp sticks or crayons as long as you are not color-blind. As you heat the brass, you will notice a blue wash and shine appear. This is the re-crystallization of the work hardened brass. Re-crystallization occurs at around 670 degrees Fahrenheit. This is as hot as you want to get your brass. If it glows red, you will over soften the brass and could risk collapsing the neck in a die. As soon as the blue wash appears, toss it in a bucket of water to quench it. The trick is to heat it fast and cool it fast.

They make all kind of tips for your torch, however, I use the standard tip and hold the cases with my fingers and rotate the case in the flame. By the time I feel the heat travel down the case, the neck is annealed.

Todd E - If you don�t feel the need to anneal, then don�t do it. However, just because you don�t believe in it does not negate its benefits.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:45: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

+P,

I feel that your test is relevant. I suggested testing the force it takes to drag the expander button from a dry neck as that may simulate a bullet and neck tension. We want to know if the tension varies as the case gets more work done to it. This of course may affect accuracy.

To those who are getting emotional over this please just list some facts or a site that makes your point.

This is an interesting test, Anders.

Unfortunately, it only prooves that the way of annealing you refer to is ineffective.

Shooting and resizing means cold working on the material which alters its structure (the cells become stretched and clamped). Professional, knowledgeable annealing will reset this to its former status and flexibility.

Let me state this:
- new brass will not be friction free
- a minimum of case extension extends case life, i.e.: a tight chamber plus neck sizing (the bushing style) will extend case life
- annealing is not just a so-so activity, a symbolic action, but needs knowledge and experience in heating and cooling (temperature and duration): it is not enough to heat the brass to the ideal temperature but it has to be kept at this level for a while
- case separation is a totally different topic where the key word is "head space". Our key word is "annealing".
- Ander's test is, without annealing, a simple and effective way to find out how tolerant (or how old maybe) your cases are

Maybe we should discuss the best way to anneal cases, and you, Anders, may run your test with the "optimized" procedure again ?

[ 08-31-2002, 23:23: Message edited by: waitaminit ]

I enjoy finding anything that will involve me more in my hobby. The more I put into it the more I enjoy it so I anneal all my necked cases. I bought 100 brass for my 338 when I got it and annealed every 4-5th loading. I am still on the same batch of brass so if it's all the same to everyone else, I think I'll just stick to what works.

Todd E.....please don't confuse strength with ductility.....the necks don't split because they have lost "strength", but because they have become to hard to take the sizing.

I think that the statistical significance of a test involving 4 cases handled 2 different ways is so low as to be indistinguishable from zero!
Come back and let us know after you've at least sampled 10 cases for each method.

[ 09-01-2002, 05:58: Message edited by: TomJ ]

+P.....Although many swear by the method Varmint Al uses I believe you are better off using a tempstick to mark the case to make sure you are getting consistent results....the good old Mark I Eye-Ball just isn't calibrated well enough for me. For a rookie at the process, the tempstick doesn't lie! If you go to the "smallbore" section, there is a fellow called Todd Kinker (I think) who publishes a magazine for those who shoot the little calibers...especially the .17s and the .20s. He advertises a nifty little tool to put over your torch that will very evenly apply heat to the brass necks.

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:46: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

From the Todd E handle:

My biggest problem with hot loads is setting bolts back

What material is used for cases

[ 09-01-2002, 07:43: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Todd E .... how about explaining exactly what you mean when you say you are "setting the bolts back"....do you mean you are actually moving the lugs and your rifles aren't safe to shoot after 200 rounds? What happens then?

Also a little curious about your rifle so how about some details? Also, what kind of performance do you get out of the load you posted?

[ 09-01-2002, 10:55: Message edited by: DB Bill ]

DB Bill,

I am going to let you in on a secret.

Did you know that these top loads the Todd E handle uses can also be used in cases where the case heads are completely annealed and primer pocket expansion is normal That one is on another thread.

http://www.serveroptions.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=6;t=004473#000037

Mike

[ 09-01-2002, 12:08: Message edited by: Mike375 ]

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:46: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Don
I could�t find a relyable way to conduct the test , in meaning of mesure the neck tension after repeated sizings .

I mesured the Lee 6,5*55 die and discoverd that it must be a real case killer .
The neck outside differense of a case sized with and without the expander ball installed was 0,008 inch !!
It maybe so that the brass is worked beond the stretching limit , and the bonding between the brass molykouls was un reversable with annealing.

I was begining to try the test with the 308 win but quited after 100 strokes in the Hornady New Dim� die
I only lubed the inside of the neck on time at the 50th stroke and no a tendensy of neck spliting .

After the 100 strokes I tryed the hardnes of the neck with the state of the art hardnes mesuring devise
THE TEETHS
With a medium hard bite I felt the case mouth becom oval but it springed back after lowerd the pressure and the teeths only maked a tiny nick on the surfies
.
After the annealing metod I mentioned before it was much easier ( ligther pressure ) to get the case mouth oval and it did�t spring back .
The teeht mark was more like dings than nicks.

I don�t want to make any statement about good or bad , or anything , I only want to share the outcom of my test , and now after mesuring the die , say that it was probably the die that killed the cases.

BR Anders �sterberg

Todd E....hate to keep asking questions but I am still curious. How are you adjusting the headspace? How many time have you done this to your .416? Have you given any thought to metal fatique and what might happen to your forehead if the lugs finally decide they had enough?

I was playing around with some mapp gas and trying to figure out a good way to anneal my cases evenly. I rigged up a method to do that, although I never got the hang of getting the right temp (probably because i was using mapp gas, which burns really hot, and I didn't know what I was doing or what to look for).

I used one of those lazy susans that spin around; they are for setting on a table and hold condiments. Just a flat round plastic plate that spins freely. I set a pie pan on it, and set a strong magnet in the center. Then set the case on the magnet and dropped a steel ball into it, and it held it securely. Then I filled it with water up past the web of the case. this allowed me to spin the case in place, and the flame didn't blow the case over. When I got it hot, it was still easy enough to knock it over into the water. A little experimentation and I got the water at the right height (the case sometimes stayed on top of the magnet).

If I could get a consistent burn, and knew exactly what to look for, this would have worked okay, I think. And it is pretty easy to do, even if it sounds complicated. The only thing is it sloshes water out some.

BUT, my cases start splitting after 6-9 firings, and by that time the primer pocket is so stretched that they aren't worth worrying about. I figure they are worth a max of 12 reloads and probably no more than 10 before the pocket is too loose. It is easier to just inspect the cases after sizing and belling and throw away the ones that split. This is in 454 casull.

I may try one of those anvils that swage the primer pocket, but it really is just a fun & games thing when you add it all up. In Longbob's case (458 Lott), it would probably be worthwhile.

ScottB

If you are using lighter loads, primer pockets expanding is a non event.

An easy anneal is to dip the case neck into molten lead.

Mike

Troll Bullshit - Deleted

[ 12-01-2002, 06:47: Message edited by: 500 AHR ]

Todd E....thanks. A very reasoned answer and I agree that "bolt-thrust" is very important and something that many don't think about. If someone were interested I would suggest the web-site for Lilja barrels as Dan has an excellent article on it that he wrote for Precision Shooter sometime ago. I think this is also the main reason John Lazzeroni went from using modified Rem 700 actions to build his rifles to one he designed with Gale McMillan (a modified MCRT) with a bolt big enough in diameter to handle his cases which are about the same diameter as your Rigby.

I have not noticed the type of set-back you describe as I have made it a policy not to try and "hot-rod" any specific case size or caliber. If I want more performance I either move up to a larger case with the same caliber or use the same case and go down a bit in caliber...those who try and make their .30/06 into a light .300 Mag would be better off with a .300 Mag loaded to reasonable levels as it would be easier on both them and their equipment.

I've ofter thought that those who are willing to do this and "stretch" the limits of their equipment should wear something distinctive so those of us who don't could recognize them at a glance...here let me refer you to Jeff Foxworthy

Bon Chance!