You have an accurate rifle with is Sighted-In whereever you like it. You "allow" someone else to shoot your rifle at the same distance.

Do you notice the average Point-of-Impact move? If so, how far away from your average POI?

Yep, it happens every time. POI moves maybe an inch or more.

Don

Yes I do. I learned a long time ago to "warn" some one who wants to shoot one of my guns that it wont "print" in the same place for them. Seems no two sets of eyes see exactly alike.

muck

Always! My best friend can't shoot my guns within 6" of my goups -- and swears the scopes are tilted to him.

I shoot right handed, I really notice it when a lefty shoots one of my rifles.

I shoot a lot of other peoples rifles and don't notice a shift in impact. When scopes or peeps are used.
open sights now there can be some trouble as each one looks at the bead a bit diffearant.

Or the other person has a flinch or trigger control problems.

A properly sighted scoped rifle should be able to go from one good shooter to the next with out a change POI

Generally, heavy recoil hitters move the most. I believe this difference of zero has to do with the differences in hold. Hold is the resistance the shooter offers in the recoil equation, weight, muscle tension, and degree of contact vary from shooter to shooter. I hold the forearm snug, and my brother in law barely... We don't shoot each others rifles well!

When my wife and I shoot her 7x57 it doesn't move. With some of my heavier rifles they will usually be a touch higher when she shoots them. I think it is hold or the fact that my stocks are to long for her so she doesn't get full eye relief.

I have noticed it but not very often. On one occasion we nailed it down to the difference two of us supported it up front on the bench. roger

I think everyone holds a rifle a bit diff. Eyesight has something to do w/ it as well.

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
You have an accurate rifle that is Sighted-In, however you like it. You "allow" someone else to shoot your rifle at the same distance.

Do you notice the average Point-of-Impact move? If so, how far away from your average POI?

With iron sights you will get a different point of inpact. With a scope, litte to non at all. But a scope with a lot of parallax will give you a different point of impact. Each shooter will move there eye/head to a different position on the stock, if the scope has a lot of parallax, you will see it on the target.

My cousin can't grab anybody else's rifle and shoot it within an inch to an inch and a half of "sighted in" POI!
Now on the other hand, if someone grabs one of my rifles, usually a smooooth lighter trigger than they are used too, can nail POI almost every time.
The one exception is a buddy of mine that holds the gun like a girl and I know flinch's and my "cannon's" as he calls them! (I call them rifles, 7mmRM and 300WM) sissy!
There are a couple other hunting buddies that we all could play musical rifles and be real close without having to be far enough off out to about 300yrds for taking a deer! (we all shoot at 200 and 250 often)

I believe it happens due to the hold varying.
This past weekend my wife and I were shooting in the Bud Pryor Memorial BR match in Thurmont Md. Due to a gun problem on Fri., Sara was using my rifle on relay 1 and I shot the same rifle on relay 2. We shoot this VH rifle free recoil. We used the same zero at all 3 yardages. 100, 200 and 300 yds. All we did was do the come-ups and we were both able to use the same "hold".

I learned a long time ago it's not a good idea to sight in other folks rifles. I've sighted rifles for folks at 200 yards only to have them call and say it was several inches off for them. I think it has alot to do with how they hold the rifle or they may have some sort of repeatable flinch.

Most of the real serious shooters I know can shoot my rifles vice versa and we'll both be dead on.

When I do custom loading I zero them at 200 or about 1.5" high at 100 and tell the owner he must zero for himself because he may shoot differently than I.

Reloader

For the most part I see a shift in point of impact everytime. It is usually not enough to make someone miss at 100 yards or less. I had a cousin that we could shoot each others rifles with no problems.

quote:

Originally posted by fredj338:
I think everyone holds a rifle a bit diff. Eyesight has something to do w/ it as well.

I think you naied it.
Buddy of mine was afraid his rifle was off after a bad shot on a deer last year.He asked me to shoot it for him,3" low. I told him it was likely on and hit low as to your above.He thought I was nuts so he shot it hiself dead on for him.I shot it again 3" low.

me and my bro were shooting the 22lr @ 25yards, just doing 5 shot groups then letting him to 5 shots then id do 5, at different targets on the paper of course. my shooting was consistantly an inch lower than his. thatd be 4 inches @ 100 yards...if i were shooting a deer at 300 yards with his normal rifle id probably have to give it an extra 12" of drop

Hot Core ----- Your POI certainly may move when someone else shoots your rifle setup, unless their eyes are focusing the same as yours. My son and I have the same focus points and all out groups are at virtuelly the same points. Now listen closly, have you ever noticed that your own POI may change from day to day, not by much but some change may occur. The why is that on different days under differing conditions the vocal points may be different thus another POI, then tomorrow back to the same POI as before or not. ------ If you do enough shooting with the same ammo you will notice this depending on the precisness of your loads. Good shooting.

Yes, every rifle we have groups an inch or more low when the wife shoots it, I've often thought it has to do with her being 10" shorter than me.

Myself and shooting buddie shoot at least one day a week and several rifles each trip,we have been doing this for years and I cannot remember one time that shooting each others rifles we had the same poi.Have noticed when I shoot his my groups are sort of to the left and higher when he shoots mine his is about allways to the right and lower.
He shoots off of sand bag and I shot off a rest,so we think it is the way we are looking at the cross hairs???

/

When my Son shoots my Rifles its never to the same POI.Strangely we can shoot each others pistols and be right on the money.my Son is into Sporting Clays.he has his shotgun setup so the Bird is above his barrel.Just for grins I patterened his shotgun and on paper shot way to the left,but the Stock is offset for him.

I appreciate all the thoughtful responses. It is very interesting to me that some folks find a few people who can shoot their rifle to the same POI, but most just shoot the same rifle a bit differently.
-----

Back when I first started shooting rifles, I’d noticed the Elders groups would move the POI when they were shooting the same rifle. I first thought they were moving the sights a bit, but it soon became apparent it was something different (just as you all have said) in the way the rifle is held, eye alignment, parallax, physical facial differences, etc. So, I go along knowing - that most of the time - it is foolish to think you can pick up a rifle someone else has sighted in and think it will be accurate for you.

Many decades pass and I see a World Renowned Gun Writer, mention he had gotten in late on a Hunt with a highly regarded Gun Smith, being Guided by a very well known and respected Guide. (I’ll keep the names to myself.) As the story was written, the Game was spotted by two Trackers working for the Guide as they all moved along in a Jeep. The Guide and Gun Smith got out along with the Trackers to try and locate what the Trackers could see. Eventually they did and it was bedded down at about 400yds. (The Trackers eyes still amaze me.) But, even though it was a very nice Trophy Buck, it just wasn’t good enough for that Gun Smith.

So, they said to get the Gun Writer out of the back of the Jeep and let him shoot it. I easily remember his words, “As I got out and rushed toward them, I was doing my best to work the trigger and see when it released, because I’d never fired this rifle before.†Apparently it was a back-up rifle the Gun Smith had brought along.

I stopped reading at that point and thought about how much the Gun Writer had deceived me over the years. I don’t believe I’ve ever read a thing he has said in the decades since then. And normally trashed him as often as I saw someone brag on him.

Next, more years pass, and a buddy and I are shooting paper about 10-12 years ago. After I shoot a group, he asks to shoot the rifle and I told him to go ahead, after it cooled just a bit. We are physically shaped nothing alike and his eyesight is much different than mine. Well, his 3-shots landed right in the exact same spot as mine and made a combined 2-man, 6-shot group in the 6s. An amazing fluke as far as I was concerned. No doubt a great Load for that rifle, but for the two people to shoot a combined group in the 6s… Just an amazing random coincidence.

More years pass and recently a link is sent to me by a buddy who knows me real well. In the post, there was another well respected Gun Writer, who mentioned taking a rifle – that he had never fired – and took a shot at Game with it. No distance was mentioned, or if it was, I don’t remember it.

Then only a couple of weeks pass and here comes a Gun Rag in the mail from the same buddy that sent me the link. Post-It Notes directed me to a specific page, and there was ANOTHER Gun Writer mentioning he had taken a shot at Game with a rifle he had never before fired.

After thinking about it for awhile, and discussing it with my buddy(who was also concerned), I decided to ask what you all had seen. Just thought that maybe the two of us were blowing the whole thing out of proportion. Now, I feel sure our concerns were correct.

Unless you have actually shot a rifle that someone else has Zeroed before, and know for a fact the two of you put the groups very close together, then it seems to be both irresponsible and ignorant. I suppose an argument could be made for how close the Game is, but to put it in print and let the Beginners get the impression it is OK to do such a thing, is just pitiful.

Right? Or Wrong?

I think you are right.I have been hunting many years but have never been with a rifle that I hadn't shot before.
It doesn't matter if the game is close or not,if you hadn't shot it you don't know what direction the bullet is going.I have taken several kids hunting and even seen a few of them get their first deer,but haven't taken any that I have not PERSONALLY seen them shoot the rifle they are useing.And of course they have to listen to my safety speech,wether they have taken a safty course or not.One fellow I hunt with that just started out a couple years ago had to go through the same and he is in his 40'sHe has turned out to be a pretty good shot and a safe hunter too.

RIGHT OR WRONG? Its best to fire a gun before hunting with it. But in the hands of a pro, i see nothing wrong going hunting with a gun you know a pro has sighted in, scoped guns. The only draw back when doing this with a scoped gun is this. People have different vision. With eye glasses the scope can be out of focus/blurry when a different shooter looks thru the scope. A simple turning/adjustment of the eye piece can correct this.

Hot Core ----- I think you are exactly RIGHT in your opinion and I would back you up. ----- I head up a group of 13 Elk hunters that unless I have seen them shoot their own rifle in front of my eyes, they don't go in my group. Here is the reason for that rule. We have been hunting the same place in Colorado since 1992 and the group has grown from my best hunting buddy and my son and myself to the larger number because we wanted room to bring family members and friends. We assumed that first year that we grew the group that a good Whitetail hunter was experienced enough to not worry about. That would normally be the case, but that year we had a hunter who talked a very good game that made a complete mess out of trying to shoot an Elk. When we got to the bottom of it he was shooting his brand new rifle that someone else had bore sighted only, never actually zeroing at any distance. Now we require any new hunters in the group to shoot their rifle at our benchs and their shooting determines whether or not they hunt with us. We don't have those occurances now. Yep, we miss a shot from time to time, but even the most experienced shot have an honest miss. This is the way we do it, for what it is worth. Good shooting.

Related to the text above.I would hope that everyone would resight their rifle on arriving at their Hunt destination.On one hunt my Rifle was shooting a foot to the left of POI from pervious sighting in before The Trip.

quote:

Hot Core:Right? Or Wrong?

Right on! Occasionally you will find two individuals that will shoot the same zero, but that is not the norm, even w/low recoiling rifles such as .22rf. I currently know of only two others who shoot my zero.

More years ago than I care to admit, I fired on a National Guard smallbore rifle team. We usually had a dozen team members who shared either four or six target rifles. There was only one other team member who shot close to my zero and we were off a few clicks but we knew we had to change the sights each time we shot.

The heavier the recoil of the rifle, the more important the "hold" is to POI and each shooter usually holds the rifle differently.

If you do not believe that the pressure applied to the rifle by (1)your grip (or lack thereof) on the forend and/or pistol grip (2)Cheek pressure on stock (3)How firmly butt plate is held against shoulder affects POI, just do a bit of experimenting, preferably with a larger caliber. The zero of a rifle takes into account the amount the muzzle "flips" in recoil up until the time the bullet leaves the barrel. The lighter the hold on the rifle, the farther up and right (I shoot right handed) the POI will be with a given rifle when I shoot it. Yet another reason to check your zero from field positions rather than off sand bags.

I generally do my load testing with 30-06 and lower (recoiling) rifles letting them rest on the bags, light hold on pistol grip and gently pulling into my shoulder. Shot a lot of poor groups with the magnums using that technique before I found that a firm grip on the hard(er) kicking rifles really shrinks the group size.

Target shooters learn early on that precisely the same hold on the rifle from shot to shot produces the best score and it is unusual for two shooters to use exactly the same hold.

There is no way that I would ever hunt with a rifle that someone else has zeroed without checking the zero myself or that I would zero someone else's rifle for them.

Regards,
hm

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:
You have an accurate rifle with is Sighted-In whereever you like it. You "allow" someone else to shoot your rifle at the same distance.

Do you notice the average Point-of-Impact move? If so, how far away from your average POI?

It can. My son ad I have a 4" diference in POI with the same zero, but one guy I hunt with and I must see things the same, as there is no practical difference due to who is doing the shooting.....

I agree with you HC. A person should always sight in with the weapon they are going to hunt with.