I shoot these 2 cartridges alot.
I tend to stick with mostly 165 grain bullets.
My experience & research shows that the 165s are The often highest BC , in .308 and are close enough velocity wise to the 150s that they for all practicle purposes are shoot just as flatt as the 150s.
And in the case of the .308 they are enough faster than the 180s , That with a good premium bullet , it becomes my favorite all around choice for the cartridge.
In the 06, for deer, I'll stick with the 165s, at about 150Ft faster than with the .308.
But if I am going after Elk I think its about a toss up.
The 180s should give you better penitration,
But if you are using a tripple shock barnes or a Partition, The 165s are a good choice too.
I have lots of 150s on hand, And they work fine for deer , but the only advantage I see is a little less recoil.
If recoil does'nt bother you, then thats no advantage at all.
I have 2 .308s and 1 06 at the moment,
Am thinking of another .308 to use.
I might set up 1 rifle for 150s just to use them up. but then switch to 165s.
Not a fan of .30 caliber magnums. Nothing rong with them , but if an 06 is not enough, I want a .338.
...tj3006

I'm not a 30cal fan at all, but I can't fault your logic. If using a super prmium, like a TSX, you can certainly drop a bullet wt. when compared to cup/core.

I often wonder why the manufacturers don't consider making premium bullets in lighter weights for the 308. I know of some people who use the Sako 123 grain ammo in 308 for highland red stags with great success and it is a basic cup and core bullet. Based on this I might suggest that, say, a stout 110 grain 308 partition would be a great addition and it would give a lot of the advantages of a 243 for the man with a 308. You could shoot the 110 grain head for hinds in winter with 243 type performance and then move to a 150 or 165 grain head for stags in the autumn.

Certainly here in the UK I haven't seen any such lightweight mainstream premium big game bullets for the 308 though, I'm sure, there will be people who are aware of some. Also in the UK we don't have the same potential to own multiple rifles as you might in the US, for example, and so it is good for us to make maximum use of our one rifle.

quote:

I often wonder why the manufacturers don't consider making premium bullets in lighter weights for the 308.

The 130 grain Barnes TTSX may just be made for you.

quote:

Originally posted by vapodog:
The 130 grain Barnes TTSX may just be made for you.

I've always been a bit shy of the Barnes bullets but must be honest and say that I've no practical experience of them so I'm not speaking from experience or from any factual knowledge. I would also be interested in something even a little lighter than the 130 but constructed to work at the sort of speeds it would be launched in a 308. Basically a 243 round for the 308 if you like. Would the Barnes be up to big game in the order of red deer? I suspect that most "light" 308 heads are designed for small vermin and so would blow up on larger game.

Maybe I should load up some of the Barnes and give them a try, though supply can be a problem here in the UK and often we have to take what we can get and be grateful for it. However, it has got me thinking...

The other problem is that some stalkers here in the UK will not allow you to use ballistic tipped bullets on their deer, though I've never actually stalked with any of them.

I guess in some ways what I am talking about is an answer looking for a problem as a 150 grain head from the 308 is a good load for anything you will meet here in the UK, even the stuff that you might also use a heavier 243 head for which is basically any deer smaller than a red stag. This fits with bits of what Thomas is saying except that he might go for the 165 over the 150 and I guess the bottom line is that a lot of stuff that is out there will get the job done well in 99% of hunting situations.

A .308 should be able to push that bullet about 3,200 FPS.....not exactly shabby!

Like you I have littl experience with the Barnes solid copper bullets but it's rare to read a negative post about them....based on that alone, I'd use them for 200 pound deer here in the USA!

Tom,

Your reasoning is pretty much what I use.

The 308 Win. for my reasoning has always been a 150 grain bullet choice for me; it works and not in any paricular Premium bullet line either. I almost exclusively use either the 150 gr. NBT's or the Remington 150 gr. Bronze Points. Normally and I say normally because at he velocities where you tend get oustanding (read=excellent) accuracy with this cartridge you don't require a Premium bullet anyway. Plus the .308 Win. lends itself well to a "stubby" barrel where I loose a few more fps too.

I'm pretty much down to 2 bullets in the .30/06 Sprg. and those are the 165 gr. Nosler Partition and the Hornady 180 gr. RN's. The 165 Gr. Nosler Partiton load has ben around the globe several times and never let me down when combined with IMR or H-4350 or 4831, or VVN160 or 560. It's my Go-To load for this cartridge and actually the 180 Hornady is used for spitting distance Wild Boar shooting at night outa the .30/06 Sprg.

I would imagine those Barnes light-weights would be a pretty good choice in the .308 Win., too.

quote:

Picture of vapodog

Posted 04 November 2008 03:54 Hide Post
A .308 should be able to push that bullet about 3,200 FPS.....not exactly shabby!

Like you I have littl experience with the Barnes solid copper bullets but it's rare to read a negative post about them....based on that alone, I'd use them for 200 pound deer here in the USA!

Whoa! I have no qualms about using a 130 Barnes on deer, elk or moose. But I am a little shy of trying to push them out of a .308 at 3200. I don't think I would try that. 3200 out of an '06 yes

quote:

Originally posted by miles58:
Whoa! I have no qualms about using a 130 Barnes on deer, elk or moose. But I am a little shy of trying to push them out of a .308 at 3200. I don't think I would try that. 3200 out of an '06 yes

I'll try a copy paste from Hodgdon's website.....:

quote:

130 GR. IMR 4895 .308" 51.0C 3153
57,800 PSI

It merely takes a bit of compression to get another grain in the case to achieve 62,000 PSI and 3,200 FPS....but if one is squeemish about that 3,153 isn't at all shabby either.

I will need to reserch that 130 grain tsx a little. I am sure it would kill deer real dead.
But will it shoot much flatter than the 150s and 165s ?
I will need to see what the BC is, ill poast back when i have looked into it deeper.
...tj3006

Thomas Jones

Be advised the load from the Hodgdon website posted by vapodog is one hell of a compression load. In well fire formed unsized Winchester .308 cases 51 gr of IMR4895 goes to the case mouth. Stuffing a bullet on top of that might be a problem. There are better powders available to use with 130 gr bullets in the .308W case. If you've a 26' barel then 3200 fps may be feasable if you really want to push max pressures. 3000-3050 fps out of a 22" barrel is a more likely quest.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
... If you've a 26' barel then 3200 fps may be feasable if you really want to push max pressures. 3000-3050 fps out of a 22" barrel is a more likely quest. ...

Always interesting to see someone "guess" at an answer and then base a recommendation on that guess - pitiful.

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
Thomas Jones

Be advised the load from the Hodgdon website posted by vapodog is one hell of a compression load. In well fire formed unsized Winchester .308 cases 51 gr of IMR4895 goes to the case mouth. Stuffing a bullet on top of that might be a problem. There are better powders available to use with 130 gr bullets in the .308W case. If you've a 26' barel then 3200 fps may be feasable if you really want to push max pressures. 3000-3050 fps out of a 22" barrel is a more likely quest.

Larry Gibson

Larry is correct....this is a compressed load.......and one always needs to work up.....but that should go without saying.

I have neither tried this load nor have I tried this bullet....that said there are five different powders posted on Hodgdon's website showing velocities over 3,100 FPS and pressures under 60K PSI.....all of them compressed and all of them potential for additional fuel.

I would further concur that any benefit of a 3,200 FPS bullet over the same bullet at 3,000 is quite marginal and of little value.....however for those that want to load to max the 3,200 mark seems quite achievable and even in a 22" barrel.

Also, I doubt seriously that this bullet will shoot flatter than a 150 or 165 grain bullet over the long haul.....but then my post was directed to this question by caorach

quote:

I often wonder why the manufacturers don't consider making premium bullets in lighter weights for the 308.

For those that are squeamish about compressing powder these loads should be ignored but for the loader that wants to maximize his performance (and at reasonable and safe pressures), learning to compress loads will be a benefit as a great many high-performance loads are compressed and this includes some factory loaded rounds too!

For those that load for modern bolt rifles, there can be no reason to avoid pressures equivalent to the pressures factory loaded in the .270 Winchester and a few other cartridges and for anyone to call these pressures unsafe is sophmoric. There are a lot of factory rounds loaded to greater pressures every day than the loads shown on Hodgdon's website.

Sift through the information and be your own judge.....

The latest barnes manual,
lists the 130 grain TSX (no tip) using a 24 inch tube as reaching 3222 while being pushed by55.0 grs of W-748 ,3235 by 56 grs of BLC-2, and 3221 with 21 grains of AA-2460. Lit By a federal 210.
But not knowing the BC of the tipped version, don't know if the trjectory will benifit much.

For Elk hunting with a .308 a 150 grain ttsx might be a great choice.
I found the BCs for the TTSXs on the barnes site.
the 130s are only at 350.But The the 150s are an excelent 420. The 168 Bumps things up to 470 , and the 180 grain is up to 484.
That gives my some usefull info.
I Will definatly lookinto how flat that 150 grainer shoots.
If you can get somthing close to 2900 , you are looking at a great all around bullet.
...tj3006


...tj3006

quote:

Originally posted by Hot Core:

Always interesting to see someone "guess" at an answer and then base a recommendation on that guess - pitiful.[/QUOTE]

Hot Core

Suggest you put 51 gr IMR 4895 into a .308W case and see just how full it is, then come back and tell us it was a "guess".

If you're referring to the 3000-3050 fps then the "guess" was made numerous years ago using your CHE and PRE methods in a M770 Remington and two M1As, all with 22" barrels. I was using the Speer 130 HP with Winchester cases in the M700 and R-P cases in the M1As. Powders ran from 2230, H335, BLC2 and 748 for ball powders and 3031, H & IMR 4895 and 4064 for extruded powders. Loads that produced over 3100 fps would blow primers if the temperature was above 80 degrees. Are you now telling me that CHE and PRE were only "guesses" and are incorrect?

Besides all that for someone who always recommends to "leave the chronograph at home" or " to "trash it", just how is it that you might know the factual velocity of any load? Please do come back with more of your assinine statements that continually contradict yourself.

Larry Gibson

vapodog

Interesting post and always a good reminder that things may not always be possible or even correct in loading manuals. I know we have had our disagreements before but just wanted to let you know that on one thing we do agree. It is this;

"For those that load for modern bolt rifles, there can be no reason to avoid pressures equivalent to the pressures factory loaded in the .270 Winchester and a few other cartridges and for anyone to call these pressures unsafe is sophmoric."

Our disagreement seems to only extend to how one gets to that pressure level. For example; my 24" barreled M70 (3 years old) )'06 hunting load for elk is a Hornady 190 gr SPBT over a healthy dose of H4831SC. It is a compressed load (though not near as much as the above .308W/51 gr 4895 would be). Velocity is 2733 fps with a MAP of 64,700 psi(M43). With it's actual BC at .494 it still holds 1895 fps and 1515 fpe at 500 yards. Drop at 500 yards with a 200 yard zero is 47". That is a pretty decent elk load. Peak pressure on a 60 degree day runs 65,400 psi(M43). Where I hunt elk with this load the temperature has run from -8 up to 45 degrees over the years. This is a perfectly safe load that I only use for that specific use under those conditions. I will however, not use that load under any other conditions of warmer weather.

So you see we do agree on several things actually and probably more than either of us realise. The information I gave to Thomas was based on my experience loading 130 gr bullets in the .308W. The details are in my post to Hot Core. That information does not reflect on your post as you openly stated you've not loaded that weight bullet in the .308W. I only refer you there for the information. Nice chatting with you.

Larry Gibson

quote:

Originally posted by Larry Gibson:
...Besides all that for someone who always recommends to "leave the chronograph at home" or " to "trash it", just how is it that you might know the factual velocity of any load? ...

Never said I didn't totally waste a lot of time and effort using one. ALL my responses are based on first-hand experience, or I tell people when I'm making an educated guess.

You really don't have a clue about the experience level and background of the old regular posters on this board. You apparently think we are all as Rookie as you are - pitiful!

Hot Core

You should have stuck with your first paragraph. It was applicable and reasonable considering your phylosophy on chronographs. However, as usual, you have to be a smart mouth as with your second paragraph.

I guess your "6,525" vs my "393" makes you the "expert" here. I was in fact only quoting yourself from many of your previous posts. I might add that is nice to know that you realise your CHE is only a "guess", even if somewhat educated. I have to admit to that because I too used CHE for some years before I really understood how unreliable it is. Obviously from the "rookie" comment you have no idea of my experience and background either. I haven't always sat around eating doughnuts you know!

Larry Gibson

My testing of different weight bullets in the 08 and 06 led me to believe that (at least with my guns) the 180 gn is the optimum in the 06 and the 165 in the 308. The one exception to that was the use of a 150 gn slug in the 06 for lighter game.

The reason I say that is because I was unable to get any significant gains with the lighter 165 in the 06 or with the lighter 150 in the 308 and the 180 gn was just a dog in the 308.

However I did find that a 150 gn slug in an 06 DOES offer a significant velocity advantage making it IMO an excellent deer load.

Those were the basic results of my chronographing with 3 different 06's one 308 (and a 300 savage which had similar results to the 08) and numerous loads. Your mileage may vary..