Other than shooter error what are the top causes for them?
Bullet run out mabey?

Flyers are just a shooters excuse for an inaccurate gun or poor shooting. They shoot a 5 shot group with 4 close together and one 3 inches away. They don't want to say the gun is inaccurate so to excuse it, it's called a flyer.

I believe the term originated with gun writers who didn't want to say something bad about the gun they were writing about.

As mentioned, shooter error is the most common reason for flyers. However, such things as bullet runout, primers, neck tension, poor brass, etc. can cause problems.

I had a custom 6mm Remington made up a few years back. It would consistantly put 4 of 5 bullets into a great group. The overall groups were still not that bad, but it was frustating.
I switched primers and the problem went away.

I watched a friend test his bench rest gun one day and was amazed. He used the same five cases each time and kept them in strict order.
Sure enough, on every group the fourth case would throw a flyer. He threw it in the trash.

R flowers Thats pretty much what I do is cull the case that lands out of the group and that pretty much cures the problem.

Grumulkin Im not talking about a .700 4 shot with the fifth opening the group up to a inch.
Im speeking of a 3 shot of .200 with mabey the fourth landing off making it a inch and the fifth hitting back in the .200 area.
Im also speaking of shooting five five shot groups with 4 in the high 3's and one group in the 7's or 8's or larger.
I believe something going on with the paticular case! I do think everyone knows when a they pull a shot.

quote:

Originally posted by Grumulkin:
Flyers are just a shooters excuse for an inaccurate gun or poor shooting. They shoot a 5 shot group with 4 close together and one 3 inches away. They don't want to say the gun is inaccurate so to excuse it, it's called a flyer.

I believe the term originated with gun writers who didn't want to say something bad about the gun they were writing about.

I (mostly) agree here.....it's not a flyer....it's an actual part of your group and you must accept that!

Every one of us has had four inside a dime and the fifth one opens it to a half dollar.....right?

It's purely statistical run and your actual group is as it reads.....not what so many of us say it is when we get on the internet!

Rubbish. . I tend to agree with the posters who found a reason, eg a brass case.

Now, experts here will hound us on the need for deburring flash holes etc etc all the way up to blessing the round before fireing.

Sure a group that gradually opens up can be normal, but when a proven accurate rifle/load throws one way out there, there would be a reason, and it should be fixable, whether it's a dodgy bullet or the shooters flinch.

That is how people win BR matches isn't it? ie get rid of the flyers.

Well said JAL.

quote:

Originally posted by shootaway:
Well said JAL.

Me too ! roger

quote:

Originally posted by JAL:
Rubbish. . I tend to agree with the posters who found a reason, eg a brass case.

Now, experts here will hound us on the need for deburring flash holes etc etc all the way up to blessing the round before fireing.

Sure a group that gradually opens up can be normal, but when a proven accurate rifle/load throws one way out there, there would be a reason, and it should be fixable, whether it's a dodgy bullet or the shooters flinch.

That is how people win BR matches isn't it? ie get rid of the flyers.

You are correct sir!

I too agree with Jal. If the shooter error is eliminated there are real flyers. They are cause by several reasons and some are interdepndant on each other. Bech resters lead the way in reducing the causes for flyers but not all steps they take will show benifit in standard or sporting rifles. After years of chronographing thousands of loads I'm of the opinion that an inconsistant load (extreme velocity spread) is the prime cause of flyers. Not only does it have verticle spread problems but the adverse way it effects te harmonics of the barrel increases the likelyhood of flyers. Now what we work on in reloading is to reduce the inconsistances as much as posible.

Larry Gibson

First off, I typically can call my shots with the firearms I shoot often so I know a lot of flyers are me.

Other than me, the two most common reasons that I have experienced are bullets and bedding.
I don't shoot the premium stuff but tend to buy the seconds and bulk bullets which have more variation and at times can give some real flyers.

Bedding can be tricky but there are test you can run to determine that.

This test is inconclusive but variance in seating depth can cause a difference in POI. This was a test in a 280AI Hart 26" barrelled Sako





These were shot round robin style and were loaded at the same time with brass that had the same number of firings and very little runout. Runout doesn't seem to cause many fliers unless it is above .002", IMO. I have since found a better load that was more accurate.

Also inconclusive but a general observation is that my fliers have decreased since I started crimping with LFCD. More consistant bullet release.

I always shoot three shot groups and measure the best two and call the third one a flyer.

In this manner I can shoot a lot of 1/2" groups.

I'm not going to mention group size on the Internet because its pointless! but I can do well with four then one out of five will be way off. I will cull the flyer brass and replace it with another of same weight until problem is gone . so I know the problem is in the brass itself but I'm not sure why that's what I'm asking.
I also try to keep bullet run out to .0002 or less. In our local competition I use five rounds of brass that I have narrowed down for tight group and it has no flyer's because its been thru the culling process. I know when I pull a shot I know it happened before returning my eyes back to the target.

There are obviously alot of different cures and opinions about fliers, but the one that has caused me the most problems is parallax in the scope or a lack of. It used to drive me nuts when my rifle would shoot two or four shots touching and one in orbit. I bought a chronograph and checked the speed of my loads and didnt see any wild swings in velocity, weighed all my charges, checked ronout of every bullet I loaded. I dont discount anything that anyone else has found that caused fliers for them but parallax in scopes has caused more fliers for me than anything and the fix is to buy good scopes to start with. No Cheapies. Adjust the objective for parallax at the range you are shooting, check it every time also, sometimes conditions will change and the scope will need readjusted. If the scope doesn`t have an adjustable objective you can eliminate parallax by moving far enough away from the scope so that the sight picture is very small, almost like a peep sight, and still see the target and the center of the crosshairs. This has helped me with a few scopes I haved owned to get rid of fliers, then I got rid of those scopes and spent money on a good one to replace it.

Grumulkin's point was that you don't know that is is a "flyer" until you know your group size! Certainly if your rifle shoots 4 shots into "one hole" and the fifth is one inch away, then it is reasonable to think that there was "something different" about that fifth round. Having said that, you can throw out the brass from that fifth round, go back and shot another 5 shot group and guess what, your group size is still one inch, because that one hole group you shot the first time around is not one hole any more. Now, if you think that one 5 shot group establishes the accuracy of a rifle, fine. Go to a benchrest match and see what these folks are actually shooting. It is not all groups in the one and twos, why, because there are other factors like wind that come into play. So, you may have a 1/2 inch rifle that shoots one inch on any particular day.
Peter.

Peter I somewhat agree! But what about a person that shoots a lot knows his rifle and his capabilitys He also has under.0002 runout and velocity is right on the money and does all his shooting on cool calm no wind mornings. Lets say also He and his rifle are capabile of consistant .400's-.500's
then without Human error pulling a shot he has five targets up 3 of which are .300-.400 and the fourth target has 4 in the general area of .400 and one shot makes it a .950 and he did not cause it. I know what does it when it's always the last shot that fly's LOL

I shoot Schuetzen, and the time limits are generous, dating back over 100 years. I used one case that a friend made from bar stock for me several years ago. Since I was breech-seating the bullet into the throat (+.0005" interference fit) he made the case about twice as thick in the side walls and index marked it for me. Deprime, reprime, charge the case, put a crinkle foam wad (florists foam) against the powder, breech-seat the bullet, insert case and Boom! There have been many 10-shot groups shot at 200 yards under 1.5" this way. Lead bullets at 125-1500fps.

Rich
DRSS

Idaho, that is an interesting point. I have always wanted to take all my reloading stuff to the range and load just one case five times. That eliminates the case from the equation. Weigh each charge, which eliminates the powder. use the same primers and use a straight line bullet seater. It seems to me that is the practice for optimum accuracy for that load, whihc presumably is your accuracy load, from that rifle. That brings us to the famous gun scribe quote "one called flyer"!
Peter.

Peter havent I read somewhere about BR shooters
in the past that have shot a whole match using just one case?

Flyer's ?. Those are Pilots in a cockpit !.

Inexplainable variations beyond the control of the most exacting reloader !. Period !.

Match Primers ( 2% ) Powder by lot same container ( 3% ) now add in projectiles cases neck tension , weapons , chamber , barrel , fouling need I go on ?.

Even out of a Machine rest that returns to Zero each and every time . Ammo will produce differences in POI .

Has anyone ever chrony'd there best group ?.

I did and was dumbfounded when it wasn't my least FPS mean average ?. Still trying to figure that one out !.

Best group I've ever shot had an average spread of 65 FPS through the Chrony !...

quote:

Originally posted by Peter:
Idaho, that is an interesting point. I have always wanted to take all my reloading stuff to the range and load just one case five times. That eliminates the case from the equation. Weigh each charge, which eliminates the powder. use the same primers and use a straight line bullet seater. It seems to me that is the practice for optimum accuracy for that load, whihc presumably is your accuracy load, from that rifle. That brings us to the famous gun scribe quote "one called flyer"!
Peter.

If you go to a BR match you will see a lot of guys shooting the same 5 over and over. They carry all the neat stuff in Sinclair to the range and keep reloading the same brass. I like shooting with them but I like to load mine at home so I don't get in a rat race at the bench.

dgc940, I don't believe that happens any more. Many like to "shoot the conditions" ie. find the right conditions via the wind flags and then shoot as fast as they can.
Peter.