The first picture is shot 3-7 with sho 1 and 2 (not shown) coming from a perfectly clean bbl.

The second picture is shots 13-17. I shot 4 sets of 5 shot groups with this gun that day and only the first group was bad - the rest were between .55" and .95".

Any Ideas?

"perfectly clean bbl" never shoot best...

I agree with Steve. You never see the hardcore target shooters ever try to group the first few bullets out of a clean barrel. I have a 7 mag that needs a dozen rounds through it before it will group to it's potential.

I'm with the others, got the barrel fouled, then it shot great. Perfectly normal.

A properly broken-in barrel will shoot the same, clean or dirty.

Some will and, some won't.



Accuratereloading.com The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading What is the cause of this???[/quote]

I have seen this also (i.e., smaller groups with barrel fowling) especially with moly-coated bullets like fail safes.

What bullet were you using?

Same here. On matches, I always squeeze off 10 rounds, not even TRYING to hit paper...just to "get the barrel in the mood". (And after my last training before a match I don't clean my barrel.)

quote:

Originally posted by pwking:
The first picture is shot 3-7 with sho 1 and 2 (not shown) coming from a perfectly clean bbl.

The second picture is shots 13-17. I shot 4 sets of 5 shot groups with this gun that day and only the first group was bad - the rest were between .55" and .95".

Any Ideas?

I could be wrong, of course, but it seems to me that the first few shots indicate that the barrel was warming and expanding.

By the time you shot the second group the barrel had already separated (or closed on) from a pressure point somewhere on the stock, and stabilized.

You can find out about this by not cleaning the barrel (just leave it fouled), and coming back to the range several hours later when the barrel is completely cold. Fire another group and see what the result is. If you get a tight group it means that the barrel needs fouling shots.

The problem I see with the first group is vertical stringing. You can search the net for "vertical stringing cures" for hints on this problem.

My Ruger .338WM shoots better when clean and cold. Since I only fire one or two shots on moose when hunting, the first three shots is all i am concerned with. So whenever I am hunting, the barrel is clean.

That's why I never clean my rifles during hunting season for that reason. Unless it gets soaked or filthy I just wipe it down on the outside at the end of the day and leave it.

It has been my experience with my guns that in some cases it doesn't appear to make a lot of difference. I have a 7x57 Ruger however that on the first shot after cleaning I might as well close my eyes and touch it off. My cleaning method is the same in all of my guns so the answer must lie elsewhere.
What baffles me in this debate are the articles that read if a gun is not shooting well it is because the barrel hasn't been perfectly cleaned. Here it appears the barrel must be somewhat dirty to settle down.

quote:

Originally posted by Reloader2:
It has been my experience with my guns that in some cases it doesn't appear to make a lot of difference. I have a 7x57 Ruger however that on the first shot after cleaning I might as well close my eyes and touch it off. My cleaning method is the same in all of my guns so the answer must lie elsewhere.
What baffles me in this debate are the articles that read if a gun is not shooting well it is because the barrel hasn't been perfectly cleaned. Here it appears the barrel must be somewhat dirty to settle down.

You are correct, at least about your rifle and my rifle. Mine shoots just fine regardless if it's clean or not. But as I look at the pictures of the targets posted above, I can clearly see a definite case of vertical stringing. Now, if the first target would show a wide but somewhat round-shaped pattern, then I would agree that "perhaps" the barrel shoots better after a few fouling shots, as indicated by the second group.

That first target shows holes that are spaced from each other by almost 1/2", which indicates to me that the shooter allowed the barrel to cool slightly, or at least that the shooter didn't fire his rifle at a fast pace. A vertical stringing pattern from a pistol, a weapon which is shot pretty fast, would show the holes very close to each other in a vertical and upward motion.

There is a picture of vertical stringing from a handgun at this link:
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/.../m/228000789631/p/11

I always fire one fouling shot before shootig a rifle for group and find it helps quite a bit. I also find it helpful to run a couple of dry patches through the bore to remove any trace of oil before shooting for group. Just one mans opinion. Best wishes.

Cal - Montreal

Thanks for the replies. Sorry I wasn't able to answer more quickly but I didn't have internet access this weekend.

I tend to think it was the heating of the bbl that made it string like that. Since I shot two foulin shots before that group and since they were in such a perfect line.

The bbl is a savage sporter weight and the stock is a flimsy POS savage. I will see if I can shoot it sometime this week with a cool fouled bbl.

P.S. Ralph - I tend to disagree with you on that one. Factory bbls are made very poorly with tool marks that look like canyons in a bore scope. This gun was the last bbl that I actually broke in - one shot then clean up to 30 rounds then shot 3 times and cleaned for another thirty. Bbl break-in has proven to be a waste of time and money for me and many others I have talked to.

Then you must have a mechanical problem. If your stock is poorly bedded, or bears unevenly on the barrel, then it would explain your stringing. If everything is correct, then it is your bench technique. If you shoot from a sled, then it must be your load.

I don't think its your barrel. Walking barrels tend to walk up to either right or left, not straight up.

Barrel breakin is not a waste of time. It eliminates one variable from load development. If you are satisfied with average accuracy, then it is a waste of time, but for us anal handloaders, barrel breakin is worthwhile.

Seems to me that your gun doesn't shoot too well with a clean, cold barrel! But when fouled some, it gets real good!! Shoot it fouled......

Ralph - I think you are right - the stock is straight from the factory - it has only been free floated.
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Not to get into a bbl break-in debate with you but not all think it is as cut and dry as you are putting it. Please go to the site below and see what Gale McMillan thinks of bbl break in. There are many others in competitive shooting that feel the same. Do a Google search on it and you will see what I mean.

Once again, thanks for the advice on my rifle.

BBL Break In

I have a friend that says the same as Ralph in that your rifle should shoot well cleaned and he doesn't believe in the fouled shot theory. In my own experiences the clean shot is the one that doesn't usually group.I foul my rifles before going hunting.

quote:

Originally posted by Ralph Hyrlik:
A properly broken-in barrel will shoot the same, clean or dirty.

Bench tecnique probably the reason,point of aim?