The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Why Alliant Won't TEST Blue Dot for use in rifle cases:Go | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
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| One of Us |
I decided to post this also as a separate thread...one forum member brought up a good question on the thread about Blue Dot Mishaps.. so I took the time to answer it....It's pretty much common sense for anyone ever involved in running a company, or involved in sales and marketing... so here you go again: I've also talked to Ben Ammonette on the subject multiple times...Contrary to what the Chicken Little Crowd here claims.. our conversations have gone differently then what theirs did.... Ben asked if I would be willing to share some of my load data with him.... which I happily did.. he indicated that he needed to put testing it on his 'to do' list...but also clarified his 'to do' list was pretty long... what a lot of folks on the forums don't seem to look at, is this subject from the factories perspective... Item number one is expense...It is spendy doing all this testing.. secondly, how will the data effect sales of the product? will it increase sales of it or not? thirdly, is that the direction the factory wants to go? do they really want users, using LESS powder? at the same time increasing the chances that the idiots in the handloading community will mess up, and then try to sue the factory for their individual screw up? these are all business decisions that a business is going to have to look at... Long ago, the factory actually did test and distribute info on Blue Dot being used in the 22 Hornet and the 221 Fireball, that were coming out for use in new single shot TC and Remington XP 100 pistols.... however that was a different climate in the legal world at that time in regards to the firearm industry... much of the info done with faster powders with cast bullets was done by Lyman as they were in the cast bullet market and saw a niche, and thought it was worth their while to develop data using faster powders... not for selling powder... but for selling Cast Bullet Products.. Alliant is in the powder market, NOT the cast bullet market...it isn't in their financial interest to convince people to use LESS powder.. data Alliant has over using such powder as Unique in rifles, is data that was developed and tested many many years ago... decades... nothing has been done currently... and why was it done decades ago and not now??? because back then, folks still looked at things economically as not all of America was as financially well off as compared to today.. snd there were still a lot of folks who were using rifles originally designed for use with black powder...Unique filled the niche.. so there was still a market in existence at that time... that market is much smaller now.. and sue happy legal environment exists now, that didn't exist many decades ago... Blue Dots use with cast bullets also falls into the problem, that with blue dot, you can push a bullet faster than many cast bullets perform best at...and give the best accuracy... and finally as Ben Ammonette also admitted, and any factory ballistician will tell you.... there are hundreds and hundreds of bullet, powder and cartridge combinations that are possible out there...The Factories don't have the time, or the money to embrace the expense of testing them all.. and from marketing ability ( or return on investment) it is not necessarily worth their time to do so... if it was worth their time ( read profitability) then they would test it... but Alliant is selling more than enough Blue Dot to meet their projections to the Shot Gun and Pistol reloading markets..... working up data for rifle cartridges is contrary to what the marketing people are going to want to hear... they'd rather have you put 60 grains of RL 22 in your 06 cases, than 25 grains of Blue Dot... the more powder you burn, the more powder you use, and the more powder you buy!.. plus the more slow powder you use, the less chances you have of hurting yourself by screwing up...( like double charging)... so why would the factory want to go and test something like Blue Dot or any other faster powder in a rifle for??? they have no incentive to do so.. I've spent years in sales and marketing.. that is why their perspective is so easy for me to understand and see from their view point... so if the desire exists to use Blue Dot in a rifle cartridges and guys like me can see advantages for it from MY PERSPECTIVE and my benefits, then I have to work and develop it on my own... I also have to develop safe parameters and procedures on my own... those are risks I take as a handloader, yet feel competent enough in my abilities and understandings, that I know it is not a problem.. and if it becomes a problem then I have no one to blame but myself... so I did so... then I was willing to share with my fellow forum members here.. never asked for any profit to come of it... but then come along guys who tell others not to do it.. because if it isn't in a book, then it isn 't safe... most of those haven't tried it oersonally.. and secondly they ignore the fact there are certain risk factors we embrace being handloaders in the first place... some one who isn't paying attention, can double charge a case with any faster burning powder... the problem lies when the double charge doesn't overflow the case, so they don't know it... however gang, on the other hand, someone not paying attention can also just as easily put in a half charge of a slow burning powder, say like 4831... and there is tons of info out there warning of the potential danger of high pressures resulting from that... as far as I am concerned, paying attention and know what you are doing are essential to safe handloading... to the moron who isn't, I see no less chance of either way, of double charging a fast powder in a case, or half charging a slow powder... either way, there are tons of info starting that high pressure problems await... but the naythesayers are always standing on a soap box and criticizing how it is easy to do one.. yet they are smart enough to not do the other... the difference is, I know what I put into a case... and if I make a mistake, then I as a handloader embrace the problem.. and not try to pass blame on someone or some other entity and try to want to get compensation from someone else.. so there is my take on it... I am sure it will follow with the naythesayers and the chicken littles having many a contrary opinions per usual... but if someone has followed this Blue Dot in rifle cartridges debate as it has seesawed back and forth over the years... they will notice the pattern, that many many users have loaded 100s of thousands of rounds and have experience zero mishaps... we have had a few mess ups ( very few) and the one big kaboom the user admitted to doing a double charge, because he got distracted...( that proving he was a decent guy, admitting his own mistake instead of trying to blame others).. the other pattern that one will notice who ever has followed all this.. the number of those in the naythesayer crowd are few, but they are very vocal...they will go one for pages and pages... arguing against hands on experience, with many many years of 'theory' and reading opinions of others... plus they just know better and try to justify that, because the 'factory has never tested it!' so I addressed the reasons why... reasons that any company is going to look at... bottom line, what is the cost of testing, vs the profit potential... and from that perspective, Alliant has no reason to be motivated to test Blue Dot in rifle cases... it is cheaper to just say they don't recommend it, and highlight that when some moron wants to sue them, because he screwed up.. that is pretty straight forward for anyone who has ever been involved in the business world... makin the world safe for idiots.. well that is the government's self appointed job... and they don't want you reloading your own ammo.. they don't even want you to own a gun, much less ammo to shoot in it..they are too afraid you might be tempted to use it on them... cheers seafire Aug 10, 2010  | ||
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Yep, right on the money. | |||
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 I guess I'm missing something. Last week or so you seemed to be sueing for an intelligent peace and now you post this well written irritant in the Blue Dot War.What's the haps, John?  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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So is it safer now? ________ Ray | |||
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Oh good Lord in Heaven help us! ANOTHER troll bait thread? For the record, I have used and will continue to use Blue Dot loads in my 223, and possibly other cartridges. Thanks to Seafire for that. I could care less what anyone else has to say about it. Si tantum EGO eram dimidium ut bonus ut EGO memor | |||
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My guess is Alliant won't test Blue Dot in rifles because some idiot will double-charge a case and blow half his fruggin' head off. Then the lawsuits begin... Careful, there, Slowpoke. There are those in these pages who don't like it when someone decides to do something with which they disagree. Trust me; I know well of which I speak. | |||
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The finnish powder manufacturer Vihtavuhori does publish reduced rifle loads for his N110 powder. N110's burning rate is very similar to BD, I would also presume that the remaining internal ballistic parameters are pretty close. I am guessing here but would presume that when it`s OK to load N110 in rifle rounds, BD's behaviour will not be different. Now, N110 being less fluffy than BD makes double loades a little less obvious. | |||
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Yet they have no problem working up and then publishing loads for every one of the new cartridges du jour. Just how much time and effort would it take one of their ballistic techs to do Blue Dot testing? A week or two? | |||
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I see about: 4% True 29% Wishful irrational thoughts 67% Misleading/False/ Totally WRONG For a grand total of 100% Dangerous, illogical  ----- Oh yes, ya'll have a great day!  | |||
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Whom could the troll be? 
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I generally try to avoid taking sides in these pissing contests because I find them to bring no "common ground". More often than not I have found good and informative information on this site. Name calling and opinionated rigidity are not part of the afore-mentioned. It is not up to me to instruct anyone, however, I think it is time to let it rest and become a bit less contentious. GOOD LUCK and GOOD SHOOTING!!! IF YOU'RE GONNA GET OLD,YOU BETTER BE TOUGH!! GETTIN' OLD AIN'T FOR SISSIES!! | |||
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and what 'scam' would that be Glenn? I've made No profit or gain off of any of this.. except maybe some people's appreciation and some people's scorn... but both of those are free.. | |||
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Seafire has really got me going on this Blue Dot thing. How silly of me to have been gullible enough to buy all that marketing mumbo-jumbo from the powder companies just trying to make us use more powder so they can sell more!  I feel so stupid to have been duped like that.   I realize now that the 75 other slower burning powders on the chart are just for marketing purposes to increase the margin they can make.  I'll bet that the ammo manufacturers actually use Blue Dot in all their factory rifle ammo! They just don't want us to know. Then we'll know it's safe and put them out of the powder business. Just think of all the money I'll save using Blue Dot in the stuff I load!  Ah, yes. The 7mm RUM, .300 Win, and even the .338 Lapua! No more barrel heating and no more lining the pockets of the greedy powder peddlers! Thanks Seafire!  I've just had back to back wins at the SRM shooting the Creedmoor with that loss-leader, slow burning, W-760. I wonder if I'll be the first to win the SRM when using Blue Dot in the 6.5 Creedmoor! At least these are true....
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This is another "Blue Dot" comedy thread. Please wait until I get my popcorn and pull up a chair---------ok now please carry on!  | |||
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Lots of comedy! | |||
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This is making the assumption Boss Hoss is back with his chair, his beer and a fresh bowl of his favorite popcorn! so I'll proceed...   Come on Mr Camuglia.. I've PM'ed with you in the past.. you are a rational and sane guy.. unlike Glenn.. No one is advocating this as a do all powder.. probably 10% of all my shooting is done with Blue Dot.. but it does have an application.. point being made here, is it is not economically smart for the factory to test, much less push Blue Dot.. my points about marketing and profitability are backed up, by looking at RL 7 for an example.. An Alliant powder, and for years they had load data available for its use, up and including Magnum cartridges.. 300, 338 etc.. it was safe for years.. now try to find any data on it whatsoever... if you do, it is old data.. nothing done anytime recently... so what changed... same thing with IMR 4198 and SR 4759... they use to release data in all rifle cartridges with SR 4759 right up thru 7828.... now try to find 4198 data in anything bigger than a 223 or 222...that has recently been done.. if you do find it, it is old data.. I expect nothing more from Hot Core.. but he is not known to be the brightest candle in the store around here...you are a savvy guy who knows his way around rifles and reloading.. I am sure you can see the benefits of having flexibility in your rifles...and I am sure you can see the benefits as a handloader that you don't always need a 500 yd load for a 50 to 100 yard hunting range... Flexibility gives us choices and options, and more of them.. but the question I ask all others.. are you criticizing Blue Dot and never have tried it? you mention it in the 6.5 Creedmoor..I haven't used it in there, but I do shoot 260 Rem, and within 250 to 300 yd for field work.. it does a darn good job and is highly accurate.. and so is RL 7, IMR 4198, SR 4759 some of those other slow poke powders... a few people have come up with why won't the factory test it as a powder, and from a marketing stand point I answered it... and that goes the same with a host of other products... eg, it is safe to load a pistol ( pressure wise) with say H 4895.. but you don't see published data on that either.. marketing wise, it would not be used very often.. in my opinion, if folks wanted a powder that they would never have to worry about pressure and potentially blowing up an action, why not just use H 4831 SC in everything you shoot? I've shot it in everything from a 17 Rem Fireball to a 444 Marlin.. it worked just fine.. just like any other powder..we all have choices to use them or use something else... no one ever advocated the use of a single powder for a do all application... and our buddy Hot Core, well Glenn has been at odds with most forum members on subject far beyond just this one.. but I put you as a little more knowledgable, rational and level headed than Glenn.. and despite what he thinks, I still like the guy, because I believe we all are entitled to opinions.. mine just differs from his is all.. | |||
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Quit blowing Smoke!
Stop! You're killing me!  You're selling HC waaaay too short! My experience is in its infancy in comparison. I understand most proponents of the BD loads are using them in the .223. When I see posts of guys using them in large capacity cases, I just don't get it. My post was absurd on pupose to illustrate the absurdity of that application. Comedy is fun. I'm pretty Libertarian when it comes to folks doing stuff that may hurt them; as far as I'm concerned, it's their choice. Drugs, base jumping, Blue Dot.... . As long as it doesn't endanger others, I couldn't care any less. I'm not telling anyone not to use BD, just poking some fun at ya'll because you do know what can happen. If it works for you, carry on! | |||
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Mr Camuglia... I'll give you a big thumbs up for comedy... Me selling Hot Core too short? His fan clubs is relatively small... but who am I to interfere.. and I don't smoke, so I don't blow any... and I'll just keep Blue Dot'n away.. right along with the other 30 or so plus powders I stock and use on a regular basis... and I've enjoyed your posts in the past, and will continue to follow stuff you post...so I consider you have good points to share.. even if you don't... | |||
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Thank you, umm, Mr. John Seafire/B17G. | |||
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I've used blue dot in the .223 and .308, it works as "advertised" The .308 is more accurate with blue dot loads than will full patch loads with RL15, and it's not an inacurate rifle.I've always wondered about people that vociferously condemn that which the have no personal experience Alliants stance makes perfect sense. I bet by the time you talley up the hours the balisticians spend in the lab, cost of having the lab tied up, spend typing up their results, review results with higher ups, etc, they could easily burn $50k. If they sell more powder for that investment, it makes sense. But I don't think they'll sell any more powder than they would by having folks on the internet post their indepentily arrived at results, and Alliant is totally free from liability. __________________________________________________ The AR series of rounds, ridding the world of 7mm rem mags, one gun at a time. | |||
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And I don't get guys wanting to use .50 caliber handguns on deer. Does that make the .50 caliber aficionados wrong or stupid? Try telling them that. I've used BlueDot for years in the .223 and more recently in my .338 WinMag - this latter due to SeaFire's sharing of his experiments. Why am I doing this? I moved to Texas after 27 years in Alaska, where my lightweight SS .338 was my favorite hunting rifle. Now I don't need 3000 fps MV with 200 grain bullets for dinky Texas deer; the same bullets work wonderfully at 2300 fps MV. So I now have an accurate, low recoil, effective load for my favorite rifle. I'm happy. But you don't get it..... . | |||
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Sort the various powders by burning rate and specific gravity. For cast bullet velocities in moderate sized cases Blue Dot should be a good choice. It should also fill the case better than many powders of the same burning rate. Since there is little tested data for it I will keep using SR4759. By having no data, Alliant makes sure that I will burn up a lot of SR4759 before I ever mess with Blue Dot. I don't see how lack of data helps their sales. | |||
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Today I tested Trail Boss for the first time along with H-110 and blue dot in the 44 Vetterli using a 310 grain bullet. All three were rather accurate. The blue Dot and the H-110 were dirty.The Trail Boss was clean clean. fps. for the Blue dot was 1025 avg. for the H-110 about 1200, and the Trail boss about 1015. It would be impossible to throw a double charge of trail boss or for that matter the H-110. Yesterday at the range a young fellow blew up a Mod 94 ,30-30. A seasoned reloader from what I heard.He had a number of cuts and bruses but his dad got a face full of metal and wood and had to be taken to the hospital. I doubt if the powder was blue dot but even if it were a slower powder the chances of it happening would have been less than with the faster powder. In my mind the advent of powders designed like trail boss are a real benefit to our fraternaty. 4759 is good stuff too but this Trail Boss realy has my attention. I tried it today in my 7.62x41 with a variety of gas checked bullets up to 201grains and it worked just great and no chance for a double charge or over load. The stuff is a real eye opener.Some might say I'm trying hi-Jack this thread! MOI? rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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Hey Nimrod, You're right. I don't get it. I'll tell you what I would get if I was in your situation. A rifle meant for puney Texas whitetails. I'd give the .338 a workout when I would go back to Alaska. | |||
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just get yourself a copy of quickload and don't worry about it!! | |||
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You know, here's another line along these thoughts and trails. I was asked, why I wouldn't just buy a lesser cartridge, like say a Hornet, etc., rather than load Blue Dot in 223. My answer at the time was something else to do. But now I have had a chance to think of why I like the Blue Dot loads in my Heavy Barrel 700, 223. Nothing I own, shoots as tight a groups with reduced velocity loads, even the Hornet with full house loads, as does this rifle with Blue Dot. Sub .5" groups at 100yds are the norm. Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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What powder you decide to use is up to you, its your handload. Speaking personally, I go out of my way to pick a published load with a powder that fills the case full enough so a double charge can't occur because it all can not fit. Thats part of my safety procedure and in my view a good common sense precaution. I do use Blue Dot, but for loading shotshells. | |||
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If anyone would share that reduced .338 load using blue dot I would like to try it. I also don't have much use for 4,000 fpe loads in my favorite .338. Not that I ever placed much value in muzzle energy figures anyway, but my elk hunting days are behind me now. I still like to shoot though. velocity is like a new car, always losing value. BC is like diamonds, holding value forever. | |||
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buckeyeshooter: I agree with your safety rational, but let me just say, as I have in the past, that Alliant lists lots of Bullseye Powder loads for pistols, that do NOT fill the case, or come close to filling the case, and an overcharge, (double, triple for sure) will blow your revolver to pieces. These are published loads!! A hand loader, must pay attention to how he charges a case, if not, KAPOW! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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Swamp Shooter... I could set you up with that also.. but so the chicken little crowd doesn't get on their soap boxes and flame you and your decision... how about this suggestion.. try any charge you want, with any 338 bullet weight... of SR 4759 from 25 grains to 35 grains.. or 30 to 45 grains of IMR 4198 or RL 7... I'll guarantee you, there is something in there you'll enjoy.. will still give more than enough velocity to hunt anything in the lower 48.. and mirroring the old 33 Winchester Lever Action.. and maybe the chicken little crowd will leave you alone.. those numbers are actually findable in older data books... and still work just fine..and provide good accuracy in my 338s..I also use those powders in my 338/06... | |||
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This is better than "All My Children" without the commercials or the Saterday afternoon cliff hangers at the Lycium theater.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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and Roger, you'll be happy to know the only reason all of us do this is for your enjoyment!! Hot Core wanted Commercials but the rest of us voted him down... if you have any other powder soap operas you'd like us to go into, let us know... we are all here just for you.. our elder statesman at the reload bench! .. | |||
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 Nope! You're doing just fine without my help. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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All corporations are in it to maximize their profits. Now, not later, not next week, profits now. That can lead to some funny behaviors. I remember talking to an Accurate Arms technical representative. They had sold a bunch of surplus powder that performed just fantastically in small rifle calibers. The stuff provided excellent accuracy, above norm velocities, and yet the pressures were lower than the similar powders that were their standard product line. This might have been the Australian extreme powders because this was before those were introduced on the market. However Corporate decided not to stock this powder as a regular item because it would cut into sales of one their established powders. Corporations are not into progress, they are into profits. Profits now and as much profit as they can get. | |||
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Jerry, you are exactly correct. That is the reason I no longer use Bullseye. | |||
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You are far less likely to double charge if you are using a progressive than if you are charging into loading blocks. While I am certain some have done so, to double charge on a progressive requires an error in a continuous process. It becomes obvious that you don't have a bullet in your hand, or that you have not taken the case from your hand and put it in the shell holder. I charge all of my short range rifle cases (300 yards of less) and seat the bullet on my Dillion 550B, and I load all my pistol calibers on the progress. Double charges are a 1% issue. | |||
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The reason of a powder manufacturor not publishing load data for reduced loads when they never had an intent to do so is rather a mute point.It is second guessing and conjecture to state what we know that reason to be without any sound objective evidence.It is mute because any knowledgable reloader can experiment and acquire that info for EACH INDIVIDUAL RIFLE on his own. If the person isn't so knowledgable he or she shouldn't be going down that road or get some starting advise INDIVIDUALLY from someone like Sea Fire if they really want to follow that course.  To me this non publishing thread of Blue Dot rifle loading is just another facite and ploy to continuing the argueing and shit slinging that's been going on far too long. To me,MHO,it's like someone saying, " Hey I'm getting my jollies out of this. Let's keep the fires burning!" Entertaining? It really isn't. rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
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roger, that wasn't the intent.. I appreciate your perspective and opinion on the subject tho.. I have had several PMs about this again, and get them in batches every time the subject comes up...so I tried to answer it from strictly a marketing perspective.. per your input, if I get asked in the future, I'll just respond via PMs and try and keep this off the general floor.. I'll just save the above explanation and keep it in a word doc... and hopefully it will prevent future threads like this then, for the folks who are tired of the bantering back and forth between my camp and Hot Core's... | |||
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Slamfire: My point here is: (not you) don't knock guys using Blue Dot, if your argument is the case can be double charged, and you are looking for published data. Like you I load 38/45 ACP, etc. on the dillion 550 also. And for the lighter loads Bulleseye is the powder I use. Once the press is set and running, no worries, unless some kid in the home, or visiting, turns the powder measure screw, which I have had happen, therefore I check the powder charge with a scale, everytime I start a new loading session. Also, I believe I am professional,experinced, and responsibile enough to load cartridges with a very fine grade of quality control, as I believe most are who spend the time to read and comment upon all this. If I were going on a pdog shoot today, I'd grab a bunch of Blue dot Reloadsd 223's and go get um! Jerry NRA Benefactor Life Member | |||
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The BD debate IS very much like soap opera! You can leave for a couple years (which I've done once or twice on AR), come back pick up right where you left off! This pursefight has been going on longer than any other internet squabble I know of I have no idea how many pounds of Blue Dot I've burned at 11 grains per round, but it's many. Even larger is the gross tonnage of gophers and rockchucks I've sent to the Great Beyond with those loads. I will likely still be shooting Blue Dot in suppressed 223's and 17 Rem's as long as we're still allowed to own guns. Mark "Greatness without Grace is mere Vanity" - Hank the Cowdog | |||
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The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Why Alliant Won't TEST Blue Dot for use in rifle cases:
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