I started working up loads today for an old Army Navy Lee Speed in .303 British. I wasn't sure what bullet the rifle was built to shoot because the only thing marked on the barrel was For Cordite Only and Nitro Proofed. Anyway I loaded some 180 grain Speer bullets up to 46 grains of IMR 4350, which was the max load the Speer Manuel called for. When I chronographed the loads they only averaged 2060 fps which was nowhere near the 2375 fps the manual projected. The rifle also grouped about 4 inches low at 50 yards. I'll order some Woodleigh 215 grain bullets and see how they do. Just seems strange that the rifles velocity is that far off. I checked my reloading manuals from Sierra, Hornady, Woodleigh and loads from Cartridges of the World and all the loads in the 180 to 215 grain max out at 46 grains with IMR 4350. Anyone one had a similar experience with the .303 British. I know the bore isn't the problem because the rifling is still deep and the rifle groups pretty well.

My Sierra loading manual shows 45 grains of IMR4350 with a 180 grain bullet does 2300 fps with a 25" barrel.
IMR 4320 (43 grains) and IMR 4895 (41.6 grains)
go 2450 fps again with a 25" barrel
If your brass is fine and primers not flat you can probably go over 45 grains of IMR4350 but proceed with caution.
Best choice would be to switch to the powders that give you more speed.
The 30/40 Krag with a 180 grain bullet shows a max load of 47.4 grains of IMR4350 going 2300 fps in a 22 inch barrel. (just a comparison).

Thanks Snellstrom,
I'll try some different powders and see what happens with the 180's. Hopefully when the Woodleigh 215 grain bullets I ordered get here the rifle will shoot point of aim with the express sights. I don't care as much about the low velocity as I do about getting the rifle to shoot to point of aim with the express sight. I always expect these old rifles to shoot a little under their advertised velocity. I just finished working on loads for a .318 Westley Richards I have and it averaged about 150 fps under what the Woodleigh Manual projected the velocity to be. The Woodleigh test barrel was 26 inches and my rifle has a 24 inch barrel, but the load still shot to perfect point of aim with the express sights on that rifle.

Steve:

just a couple suggestions.

slug the barrel with a lead slug, n mic it.
and do a chamber cast. Just to make sure things are as they should be. Then you'll know more about what you've got and where to start sorting your loads.

I've only loaded for one .303 and that was in the mid '60's, long before chronographs were available. I have no idea now what the loads were. Ex took the rifle I'd bought for her when we split back in '71.

I do know we sorted charges with a 150gr for deer in a lighter load she could handle. She was just a kid then, 17-18y/o. She did great with it. first game shot was a one shot kill. Then she lowered the boom on half dozen more the same way. I don't ever recall having to finish one of her's up, nor her having to take a second shot either.

Side note: after we'd split a guy she'd dated started beating on her, she blew one thru his knee cap!! the doc told me later: "that boy will never walk on that knee again". "Self defense, give the lady her rifle, and ammo back, case dismissed". Yep, I'm glad I got rid of that one!!
Good luck,

George

quote:

When I chronographed the loads they only averaged 2060 fps which was nowhere near the 2375 fps the manual projected.

When the reality of real world velocity strikes home over what the book says.

I hardly ever find a load that matches book velocity. Most are lower then the book.

Part of the problem may be the result of the notorious range of bore diameters for the 303, which can range from .309 to .316 or more. A publisher of reloading data would, I think, be reluctant to put in print any data that approached higher pressures given this range. They may also have used a newer, tight barrel to work up the data and yours may be a for lack of a better term, a looser, barrel. I have two old 303s and am getting the same results, my barrels are .313 and .314.
Best.

Thanks for all the good advice, it gives me a good place to start. I think your suggestions to slug the bore would be the best place to start. I never gave the bore diameter much thought because the gun was grouping pretty well, as well as my old eyes can do with express sights. Also the bullets were making nice round holes in the target which indicated they were stabilized.

What size bullets are you shooting? As stated, a bullet that allows gas to escape around it will result in lower velocities, as well as it will gas cut your throat. A bad thing.

You guys were sure right about slugging the bore. I have a paradox gun. The bore was .311 from the muzzle back to 14 inches. Who knows what the bore diameter is the last 10 inches because the slug fell on through. I think this answers the low velocity question.

After I made the previous post I took one of my .311 bullets and dropped in down the barrel of the .303 from the action side. After what happened with the slug I thought it might go on up the barrel for a few inches. The bullet didn't go any further up the barrel than where it should contact the rifling. There must still be something left near the action.

BORE diameter should be around .303. GROOVE diameter will be .311 to .314. So, having a bore diameter of .311 is a very bad thing; time for a new barrel.

dpcd,
It looks very much like that is the case. I might see if there is enough meat left for a re-bore to a wildcat on the 303 case. I don't want to change the look of the rifle. I appreciate all your help. You guys are all a wealth of knowledge.

Rebore to .358 and instead of a Whelen you'll have a 35 Limey....
Or something like that.
Maybe knock her out to .375"

Ken Waters had the same issue on a rare 303 Mauser, and it had a bad chamber too, so he created the 375 Express; which is the 375 JDJ, years before jdj did his; check the Big Bore book for the article. He used the 444 case to clean out the old chamber.

Snellstrom and dpcd,
These are both great ideas. The 375 chambering, if I have enough barrel, sounds like a great way to go and probably would make an even a better woods rifle than the .303 ever was. When you look at the potential of this caliber I might even get lucky and end up with a better rifle, that looks the same and shoots where it should with the original express sights.

Speer bullets are .311 and in all my .303 British Enfild rifles I shot Hornady .312 bullets. In worn barrels the Hornady 174 grain round nose shot the best. And faster burning powders will kick the bullet in the seat of the pants harder and fill the bore.

For fire forming cases and practice I loaded 100 grain .312 pistol bullets with reduced loads.

Thanks Bigrdp51,
I hope the rifle will shoot better with the Woodleigh 215's I ordered. I don't hold out a lot of hope though. If they don't I try the lighter bullets and faster burning powder you mentioned before closing the book on a re-bore.

Steven,
I'll PM you my phone #. I have three old 303s, miscounted earlier, that I've worked with shooting well. Given reasonable expectations no reason this one won't as well. Will be glad to talk to you about it, those are great old rifles.
Best

Think about his; he doesn't have a worn barrel, he has a sewer pipe. If a bullet will freely drop down the tube half it's length, that means that it has no rifling left.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
Think about his; he doesn't have a worn barrel, he has a sewer pipe. If a bullet will freely drop down the tube half it's length, that means that it has no rifling left.

Early SMLE barrels were taper-lapped; the diameter of the bore INCREASING towards the muzzle. The theory was that if the bullet could run "more freely" as it accelerated, the shorter barrel of the SMLE could ALMOST match the muzzle velocity of the longer Lee Enfield Rifles

The .303 British was loaded with cordite powder that had more nitroglycerin than many pistol powder have today. Meaning a worn rifle bore would have throat erosion.

Meaning on a well used Enfield rifle you could not jam the bullets into the rifling to fire form the cases because of throat erosion.

Also cordite ammunition was banned from machine gun use because of throat erosion. And only single base powders were used in machine guns.

Bottom line it sounds like this old Lee Speed has a taper-lapped bore.

IMR-4350 worked OK in like new No.4 Enfield rifles I owned. But you need a faster burning powder to make a flat base bullet fill the bore on a oversized bore.

I had a 1943 Remington 03-A3 that had a sewer pipe bore. It slugged out at .310 in the throat, .309 mid bore and .312 at the muzzle.

The old 30-06 on a good day would shoot 5 to 6 inch groups at 100 yards with 150 grain bullets. Then one day I decided to try some 170 grain flat point 30-30 bullets in it. These bullet had a longer bearing surface and a softer lead core. Bottom line, using the 30-30 Hornady bullets was like putting a new barrel on this old worn rifle it shot so much better.

The key word here is "Obturation" and kicking the bullet hard in the seat of the pants to fill the bore.

I have not heard of that; but I did find some info that they did lap the muzzle ends to reduce pressure with MKVII ammo. No mention of accuracy. They said they only lapped a couple of thousandths out; not removing the entire rifling, like the OP has. That wouldn't work. You can't have zero rifling for half of the bore length. You could never freely insert a .311 bullet half way down the barrel.
Sure, bad bores can shoot great; but they have to have somewhat uniform rifling. Obturating a bullet into a smooth bore still won't work.

quote:

Originally posted by dpcd:
I have not heard of that; but I did find some info that they did lap the muzzle ends to reduce pressure with MKVII ammo.
Sure, bad bores can shoot great; but they have to have somewhat uniform rifling. Obturating a bullet into a smooth bore still won't work.

Horse hocky, why was I loading .312 pistol bullets with a softer lead core than a rifle bullet.

And he has a lee Speed rifle that predates MKVII ammo that came out in 1915.

"Cartridge S.A. Ball .303 inch Cordite Mark VI" was approved in January 1904 to design RL 10781 and shown in LoC Paragraph 12411 dated October 1904. The design number was later changed to DD/L/14006 and "Cordite" was dropped from th title in 1907..

Like its predecessor Mark II, the Ball Mark VI had a round nosed 215 grain bullet but with a thinner cupto-nickel envelope to increase lethality. The core was an alloy of 98/2% lead antimony.

The propellant charge was 31 grains of Cordite size 3 3/4 with a single glazeboard wad to give a muzzle velocity of 1,970 feet per second at a pressure of 17.5 to 18 tsi.

I have no idea what your point is. Once a bullet is obturated by the initial pressure, it won't grow any more.
(I was thinking he had worn out rifling; I now see that is not the case). I typically do not read the question before answering; saves time that way.

Bigrdt51
That's amazing research you have done on the Lee and bullets they used in the early rifles. I had read in some of my older books about some English rifles having bores that got smaller as you got closer to the end of the barrel but couldn't find anything specifically about the .303.

I would try slugging the bore from the breech end out a couple inches at a time to see what you have.
Many of these Lee Speeds (all 303s for that matter) do have cordite burn but if your bore tightens up to spec at the end, it will shoot, albeit at lower velocities you are seeing with jacketed bullets.
Another option is to paper patch cast bullets to suit the throat of your rifle. Maybe even a .308" cast patched up to .316" would work if it fits into a fired case.
Also, the 375 2-1/2" nitro express was indeed an original offering in the Lee Speed so if your barrel has enough meat in it, reboring it could be a period option. I'm thinking it probably won't allow it though. A 35/303 would be a nice option too in that case.

Thanks Huvius,
I'm hoping when the 215 grain Woodleigh bullets I ordered arrive the rifle will shoot better. The Woodleigh are .312 diameter and I have some loading data for H4350 and RL15 to try with that bullet. If that doesn't work I am going to slug the barrel in two or three inch increments to see what I get.

Low velocity problem and point of impact solved.
Today I received the 215 grain Woodleigh .312 diameter bullets for the Arm Navy Lee Speed and worked up a load to see how the rifle would shoot. I wasn't expecting much after seeing what the 180 grain bullets did so I started with a load of 44 grains of H4350. This load chronogrtaphed at 1900 fps and struck almost dead center of the target and about 1 1/2 inches low with the express sights. The next load was 45 grains with a velocity of 1932 fps and printed beside the first shot about 1/2 inch higher. The next load was the maximum of 46 grains which chronographed at 2143 fps and struck dead center in the bulls eye. I then shot two more shots with the maximum load and all printed almost dead center in the bulls eye at just over a 3/4 inch group. Velocity for the three shots were 2126, 2143 and 2150. With my old eyes I was very surprised with what this rifle did and happy I'll be able to keep it in it's original state. I'm wondering now if my slug didn't partially shear off and give a false reading of the bore on this rifle.

Steve,
That's about as good as it gets, accuracy and velocity about spot on, pays to keep trying, starting with the original load data, congrats. Good talking to you also.
Best

50 Calshtr,
It was great talking with you too. I was really surprised what the old rifle did with the right load and bullet. I can't wait to do some hunting with it. Like we talked about, hunting with an old rifle like that just makes you feel good. Best wishes, Steve