I've always tried to do a good job cleaning my rifles, but, I'm starting to wonder. The gun is a Rem 700 Classic, 30-06, a nice shooting gun, about 15 years old probably 500 rounds max fired through it. As is my habit with all the guns I plan to use for deer season, after a few shots to check zero, the gun is left with a fouled bore and the muzzle is wrapped with electrical tape to keep crud out.

After the season's over (unfortunately, no shots fired this year from that gun), I clean them all up. Went through the normal procedure with Sweet's 7.62/Barnes CR-10/ Shooter's Choice (wet patches, brush, dry patches, more wet patches, etc...) until no blue/green shows up on the patches. After the cleaning procedure outlined, which is the same one I use for all my rifles, varying only in the brand of bore cleaner used (never been able to tell a difference between the brands listed), I run a wet patch of Birchwood-Casey bore cleaner/protector through there. The Birchwood-Casey stuff is a pretty good cleaner in its own right, about like Hoppe's #9 without the smell of bananas, but, it doesn't seem to clean the copper out as quickly as Sweet's or Barnes. Anyway, while running the saturated patch through the bore, the missus yelled down with some sort of emergency or the other, and, off I went, leaving the cleaning rod/patch in the barrel. The next day, when I pulled it out, the patch was blue/green. Hmmm.

I sent another saturated patch through there, brushed, dry patches, wet patches, etc.., but this time with the Birchwood-Casey stuff only, since I figured you shouldn't mix solvents. Nice and clean. Left another wet patch in the bore overnite, and, the next morning, blue/green again. Double Hmmm!!

It took over a week of this procedure before I was finally able to get a clean patch after leaving it in there overnite. I bought the gun new, and have always been conscientious about cleaning it. The barrel doesn't feel rough (no borescope, so I can't see what it looks like in there). It's always been an excellent shooter.

Anyway, I tried the 'let a wet patch in the bore overnite' procedure on a few other guns, all that had been cleaned religiously following the same regimen listed earlier. Mixed results. Some were clean as could be, and others weren't.

Just curious as to whether any of you have seen anything similar, or, maybe now you're thinking about it and want to find out.

R-WEST

I noticed exactly the same thing quite some time ago. For that and other reasons I acquired a borescope and was shocked when I examined my bores. I thought I knew how to clean barrels after some 50 years of doing it. Boy, did I learn something! Shortly thereafter I bought all the cleaning solvents I could find to test, and proceeded to clean and look. One thing I learned is that many times when the barrel looks clean and copper free, you still can get blue patches. Apparently some of the discolored solvent will stay in pores in the bore. When you squirt brake cleaner through the bore washing it out the patches will be clean

At the time I ran the tests Butch's Bore Shine wasn't available. I've had some interesting results with that recently and find it to be the most expedient way for me to clean. After a couple of saturated patches on a jag, I've made about 20 trips with a soaked nylon brush adding solvent a couple of times. I've been amazed at the results for easy cleaning. That and JB are now my preferred methods depending on severity of fouling.

Bob338 -
Where did you get your borescope?
How much did it cost?
Thanx,
R-WEST

R-WEST,

I've seen bore scopes on sale at gun shows for $1.00 - $1.50. A good one to try is the MAAC show in King of Prussia, PA (I think they were able to go back there as of last month). Next show should be sometime in Feb.

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When in doubt, do a nuclear strike.

Bore scopes run from $300 to $1,000+ depending upon what features you are after. Several of my shooting friends chipped in together and purchased a Hawkeye from Sinclair. We paid about $700 for ours and we recently purchased the light kit for is as well. It is an extravagance for sure, however, it is wonderful to be able to use one. I scope all my bores one or twice a year.

In regards to cleaning - you can get a little too concerned about a spotless barrel. If you really want to get into a wad, you should see what a barrel looks like under the microscope. While you certainly don't want to leave fouling in your barrel, you can go blind attempting to remove all copper fouling from some rough bores.

The best advice is to properly clean with good solvents like Sweets, CR-10 or Butch's and use a good preventative like BreakFree. The best thing you can do for your gun is shoot it, not clean it to death.

R-West~
Bought my scope direct for Hawkeye, but too long ago to remember what I paid for it. Probably in the area mentioned my Zero Drift.

I did learn one hard lesson with it. The mirrors in it are quite delicate. It's some kind of silver compound, not glass. While doing my cleaning tests I would do a procedure, such as getting out the carbon residue, then look. In shooting season I shoot several rifles daily. In a few weeks of daily use through many bores, my lens' looked awful and no amount of cleaning helped. Returned it to Hawkeye who informed me ammonia was lethal to the mirror compound on the lens. I ruined it. It was repaired comparatively inexpensively, but I don't put the probe into the bore now until I've swabbed it out with brake cleaner, acetone or alcohol. No problems since.

And incidentally, you'll find that copper will get in the corners of the groove at the lands. It's my perception that the use of a nylon scrub brush does a lot to get rid of that copper in those corners that might not be touched by a patch on a jag. It reduced the copper fouling significantly. The experiment with Butch's involved several extended shooting sessions firing approximately 400 rounds total over a relatively short time frame. No time for scoping or using JB. At the end of those sessions I hated to look in that bore. I cleaned with the routine mentioned previously, and looked. Completely copper free! Impressive.

Bob338 -
I've got some Butch's, I'll give it a try.

Do you remember a thread that ran here early last year, I think, about which bore cleaner was best? I remember someone saying that Butch's Bore Shine had about the same effect as springwater. It doesn't seem like you've had that problem.

R-WEST

Butches Bore shine is about as effective as pure water IMHO.....CR-10 is the strongest and best for copper removal, but follow directions carefully...

A rifle bore need not be squeeky clean and you can never get all the copper fouling out of it..no need to else we would have to clean between each shot and not foul the barrels before shooting for groups...More rifle bores are ruined by cleaning than by shooting, I can assure you...Clean a rifle as directed oil it and forget it..

------------------
Ray Atkinson

ray@atkinsonhunting.com
atkinsonhunting.com

Just curious Ray, have you ever really tried to clean a barrel with Butch's? How? And why did I have success and you didn't? Or am I telling a tall tale? And why do a large majority of top benchrest competitors use it to the exclusion of other solvents? Just curious.

Bob338,
Careful there partner, Ray and I got into it over Butches, ammonia cleaners etc awhile back. That said I would like to apologise to Ole Ray, he's got his opinions and I have mine. Thats what makes this forum so interesting sometimes. Now I will butt out and leave you two gentlemen to debate? sure-shot

Thanks Sure Shot, I can remember many opinions without much substance. Being a Texan myself, just like Ray, I learned to distinguish the BS at an early age.

[This message has been edited by Bob338 (edited 01-12-2002).]

IMHO BBS works very well. Especialy with custom barrels. I have a 30" lilja barrel that takes two wet patches pushed through a third worked back and forth. Another wet patch pushed through then a dry patch. Oiled with Butches gun oil and finished. But factory barreled rifles I have need a little more work than that. Read a little as alot! But It does do the job.

Ray -
You say that CR-10 is the strongest and best for copper removal. Is this just your experience, or, is there proof of some kind? Sweet's 7.62 has always seemed to me to be at least the equal of CR-10. Your opinion and vast experience is much respected by me, and I mean that sincerely.

Last night, after reading yesterday's responses to my original post, I tried the BBS in a .257AI with Douglas barrel that hadn't been cleaned since the end of deer season (early December). Left a saturated patch in there overnite, and this morning it wasn't blue/green. To me, that indicates the BBS cleaned it up pretty well.

I think we get caught up sometimes in trying to get the barrels squeaky clean, as you mentioned, and do run the risk of hurting the barrel by over-cleaning. The 30-06 I mentioned in my original post shot just fine, and, if I hadn't let that patch in there overnite (all the wife's fault), I would never have noticed it and started all this.

Thanx,

R-WEST

R-WEST,

One of the things I've been thinking about reading this thread was you said you left the patch and cleaning rod in the barel overnight. The next day the patch was blue-green. Just out of curiosity, what was your jag made out of? Or did you use a patch over a worn bristle brush. Just wondering if the discoloration on your patch was from your cleaning equipment and not your barrel. Just a thought.

Martindog

Butch's is not CR-10, but it most certainly is not spring water. It works fine in my better barrels.

Just to pick on Ray with his own words, there is no reason to get ALL that copper out. I use CR-10 occasionally, about every 250 rounds in my PPC, once a season in my hunting rifles. The rest is Butches.

I actually did a test once, and cleaned my Savage 110 barrel with CR-10. Then let Butches have a go overnight. Guess what: quite a bit of color. Of course, if you do it the other way around, same thing (except for the overnight part).

To put the words of an earlier poster in a different way: 1,000 bench-resters aren't wrong (in this case). JMO, Dutch.

I'd not tape a barrel shut. Moisture inside will condense and rust the bore. I run an oiled patch down the bore when I'm done cleaning to put a protective coat on the bare metal and keep it protected from rust.

Solvents all require some time to work on the copper fouling. Most suggeste 5 minutes or thereabouts. Ammonia will disolve copper, but will also screw up your bluing. Lots of gun bore solvents have an ammonia base but are dilute and not so hard on bluing. Still, I keep the solvent off the blue. I also drape a "catch cloth" over the buttstock to catch drips as the patch runs into the bore guide.

First, I run a saturated patch on an "eye." The eye is loose in the bore and allows the patch to "mop" the surface and get it wet. I run the patch maybe ten times. Often I run a couple patches on the eye just to loosen up the crud.

Then I let the bore sit for five or ten minutes. This is a good time to clean up your bolt.

Next, I soak a nylon brush and run that up and down the bore a dozen times. I don't like bronze brushes. First, the solvent will dissolve the bronze. Second, you're trying to get the copper OUT of the bore. The bronze brush seems to ADD coppering. Third, nylon is softer.

Then, I run the CORRECT jag (a good brass one, not that nylon crap from Hoppes or Outers) with a saturated patch, then a second patch. Then a dry patch on the jag.

The dry patch tells the story. If it's green, then you're still needing to clean up the bore.

At this point, usually saturated patches on a jag (2) followed by a dry patch will indicate whether you're getting the coppering out.

If things get stubborn, run another "eye" patch and let the bore "soak" again. Then the nylon brush, then the jag . . .

Mostly I shoot at the range. We run a patch about every 15 rounds just to keep the bore clean and acccurate.

I like "Pro-Shot" jags. These days they come with their diameter marked on their base. Think about the money you have invested in the gun, and the money you spend on ammo. Then, INVEST in the correct jag for your bore. Jags don't wear out, and you don't shoot them up.

I like the Tetra-Lube products. Solvent is ammonia based and really nasty smelling, but seems to work. Also, it's a dark orange color, so you can see where it's dripped and wipe it up.

When the bore is finally clean, I run a patch on an "eye" saturated with oil. Lately, the "oil" is Tetra-Lube.

I think maybe Hoppe's #9 is the best smelling stuff in the world!

I own a bore scope from MDS in Florida that was purchased at the Shot Show in New Orleans. It is a medical grade scope and has many different light options, as well as different angled mirrors.
I use Remington bore cleaner almost exclusively in my barrels. The cleanup is a lot faster than chemical bore cleaners and it is non-toxic. The Accurate Rifle did a test on JB's, Remington, Corbin, and one or two others. None harmed the barrel in any way. I also have seen no wear when using my borescope.
Todd

I agree with Ray somewhat. While I don't think that BBS is just spring water and it works well on some barrels on the real foulers I can't get all the copper out with BBS but find that Sweets makes short work of it. No, I wouldn't soke overnight with Sweets or CR-10 but theres also no need.

I've tried most of the solvents out there.

The distinction that doesn't come up in these threads is whether they work when used as directed, or whether some extra steps are required.

Hoppe's Benchrest works when used as directed (sitting in the bore overnight). But in my rifles it may take a week.

Butch's works pretty well IMO. In a match-grade barrel it would probably be great. In other barrels (i.e., my motley assortment) it works best when used according to the directions for "Severe Fouling" on Butch's website--which involves brushing and J-B's in addition to patching with BBS.

CR-10 is the only one I've found that works quickly on a badly fouling barrel when used according to the directions on the bottle. This is the only one I use on my pre-war Model 70 which has a lightly pitted barrel. However, CR-10 will more than clear your sinuses so I try to use it outdoors at the range.

I am sure Sweet's works but it never did for me when following the directions on the bottle.

Gentlemen,

Thanks for the responses. Much to think about and try.

Martindog - That particular jag was a plastic one, although I did leave a brass one in there overnight (once). It turned the jag black, and the patch was a nice bright blue.

Genghis - Hoppe's is a great smelling potion, is it not? My wife says it has an aphrodisiac quality. I buy it in 55 gallon drums

R-WEST

I tried nearly all solvents on the market. The quick and strong ones are that - quick. But for getting all copper out, i have to use something which may sit in the bore longer - 24 hrs. As I could not get BBS, I use Hoppe�s #9. It wont harm the bore if left longer.

After first pulling out the thick crud with loop or Otis, I use patches on jags in one direction only: out of the bore!

The best jag set - beats all!! - is the Tipton jag set ( from Cabelas ). The Midway is the same, but Tipton package is better. The RIG jags are not perfect, the .22 is too big for .22 lr.

After first cleaning: every evening: one dry patch - shows copper, then one Hoppe�s jag: for wetting of bore.

At this stage, I work the jags both ways, as on the back stroke they take out more.

this thorough cleaning is only done if time permits or once a year.

The barrels are really clean, although it takes a while it really is little work, and I have an excuse to visit my gun room daily ...

Have fun Hermann

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R-WEST

Perhaps your obsession with a clean barrel coupled with your liberal use of Hoppes #9
has something to do with your wife. She does, according to your original post, scream your name frantically when you are cleaning your guns. I suggest that you have Hoppes #9 fed directly into your HVAC system to eliminate the formal step of gun cleaning, and go directly to the wife's calling for you,... or perhaps it would work as a colonge....please advise.

cwilson

cwilson -
She DOES like a clean barrel I'll try your suggestion and let you know.
R-WEST