I'm relatively new to reloading and have hit a minor snag. I'm loading some 165 grain Sierra Gamekings over H414. Sierra suggested a starting load of 47.5 working up to 51 grains and their reloading manual gives a C.O.L of 2.750.

Anyhow, I made up a dummy load at that length and it will not chamber in my rifle. In fact it appears to come some considerable way short of chambering.

The rifle is an Blaser R93 and I've never had any problem with factory loads or any of the reloads I've done so far. I'm loading Hornady 150 grain spire points to 2.735 (Lyman manual) with no problems and have some factory Nostler 165 grain ballistic tips with an overall length of about 2.785 that chamber with no problems.

Has anyone any suggestions as to what is the most sensible way for me to progress?

Have you ever made a slip fit case to check where a particular bullet hits the rifling??
You can do so by taking a fired case and slightly denting the case mouth so that it will hold a bullet but with some friction. Push the bullet into the case with your fingers and chamber the round and let the rifling push the bullet into the case as you close the bolt. That will be close to where the bullet hits the lands. Do this several times and check your measurements to make sure you are getting a consistant reading. Especially if you are working withe the boat tail hollow point bullet you may have to seat considerably deeper.
After you get a reading deduct about .008" as your bullet is sort of engraving just a bit into the rifling by using this method.

Blasers are known for having nice tight chambers. It could be that your fired brass isn't being sized enough. Are you using a FL sizing die and is the press camming over when you size the brass?

I just did that karky and guess what? Out it pops around 2.880! I did it about 10 times and got results from about 2.872 to about 2.888, so 2.880 is about average.

So, this gives me a clue that maybe the cases are the problem, clearly it isn't the head that is sticking. The dummy rounds were made up from some once fired (in my rifle, they were bought as factory ammo) Federal brass I have which has been decapped and neck sized. So, I got out the rest of the Federal cases and find that without a bullet seated some of them will not chamber while others chamber just fine. Now, these cases were all fired in my rifle and everything I can measure about them, so far, seems to be the same no matter whether they will chamber or not. Simple logic tells me that something must be different but just at the minute I can't find it.

I also noticed that the cases that don't chamber actually seem to be sitting proud by a long way, perhaps 1/4 inch or more. This would suggest to me that it isn't the shoulder that is stopping them chambering as if it is set too far forward then I would notice 1/4 inch of an error.

All suggestions gratefully received.

Oh, a quick sample of 6 of my once fired and neck resized Lapua cases indicates that they all chamber, at least so far. If I get time tomorrow I would try them all to see if any of them show the fault.

caorach.....

I'm a pretty expereinced R93 reloader with 5 bbls. and for each bbl. several loads w/different bullets. Let's move straight away to AOL.

kraky & Kay9Cop are both correct.....

'Cept IMO it's not the "tight" chambers; although the chambers are VERY similar.

Blaser barrels are manufactured from Hammer Forged mandrels. They are all excatly the same (for the Doubting Thomas' - don't start nitpicking).

Net, since they use the same mandrels made to their standards a part of the keen accuracy with Blaser barrels is their relatively short Freebore (IME - start measuring).

I would suggest that you purchase/use a Stoney Point Gauge or similar method to ensure that you are not engraving/engadging the bullet in the rifling due to an OAL issue.

You'll be amazed at their short "Leade".

Been there done, that got the T-Shirt.....just start screwing the Bullet Seater Plug down a bit at time until you hit the "G" Spot!

While you've already stated you've no issues with two other loads it would appear that your cases are sized within tolerances; therefore the difference is the bullet. Check, tweak the OAL.

Get back to us and let us know if we're off base.

Hi Gerry,

Thanks for your reply. While I am sure what you say is correct my thinking is that because cases without bullets seated in them also fail to chamber then the problem must lie with the case as Kay9Cop says.

Now, I'm new at this and so am sure to be doing and saying lots of stupid stuff so don't hesitiate to put me right.

what I can't work out is how two cases fired in the same rifle from the same box of factory ammo and, from what I can measure, having the same dimensions can perform so differently. Clearly there must be some difference that I'm not measuring and your theory still holds a lot of water but I don't think those "bad" cases are going in anywhere near far enough to put the bullet near the lands.

More investigation is clearly called for.

Oh, and the cases that fail to chamber have been in and out of the rifle several times so it is unlikely that it is a symmetry problem.

caorach, is your case length consistent? If some cases chamber well and others don't, it sounds like you need to trim your cases to me. Especiall if they blaser is 'short throated' if may be critical on case length. Trim some of the cases that don't chamber well a good bit, knock a 1/16" or better off of em, and see how they chamber.

Good luck!

You need to full length size your cases - that's it guarenteed!

Are you loading the Spitzer Gamekings [lead pointed] or the HP Game Kings?

I use the 165 HPBT Gamekings and they need to be loaded to a shorter OAL than 2.80.

If this is not the situation, then try to chamber a resized case before you seat the bullet, to see if the case is the problem.

Thanks for all the help and suggestions. It is the lead pointed Spitzer ones that I'm using but I am starting to suspect that it is the cases rather than the seating length. I have found that some cases without a bullet seated will not chamber either.

I guess that my next move is to full length resize some of the cases that don't fit and see how they work for me.

I am a bit puzzled now as these cases were fired in my rifle and they extracted just fine. Is it possible there is something I am doing in the neck resizing process that is causing the problem? The diameter of the neck is certainly well within the spec for the 308 Win so that seems unlikely to be the issue.

You can't just necksize time and time again. If you are using full power loads you will have to use your full length die after about 2 neck sizes. (Sometimes one).

The plot thickens...

Reflecting on your comments kraky I have to say that the Laupua cases have only been fired once with a minimum load. This is their first time to be reloaded.

This afternoon I checked the Lapua cases and the empty cases will all chamber with no problems at all. However, once a bullet is seated in them they no longer chamber, even with the Hornady Spire Point seated at 2.735. This has me further confused however in view of the significant distance the brass projects from the chamber when it will not seat I am starting to think I have a problem with my necks. I've measured them and they were all well within the spec for the 308 Win but I guess I need to do more measuring.

I will also experiment with full length resizing some of the Lapua brass to see if I can then seat a bullet and get it to chamber.

One last "guess"..if the brass chambers before seating the bullet and the bullet is not hitting the lands I would give this last guess.
Is it possible that your seating die is trying to crimp just at the last bit of travel while seating and this is pushing the neck around or changing the shoulder dimension ever so slightly?
I would recomend to turn the seating die up out of the press another 1/2 turn and then turn the seating stem down to make up for the change. This would ensure the crimping feature isn't hitting the case mouth at just the last few thousands of seating.

The seater die I was using was an RCBS competition die so I don't think it is crimping and the seating stem is working in about the middle of its range. However, I might try moving it just in case. My problem of course is that the fault isn't consistent as sometimes brass with no bullet loaded also fails to chamber.

So, I'm doing an experiment.

I have 5 bits of fired brass that have not been sized or de-capped, they are literally right out of the chamber of the rifle and as you would imagine all 5 chamber.

I have 5 bits of Lapua brass that was bought as factory ammo (155 grain Scenar) and have been neck resized and primed but no bullet is seated. Four of these bits of brass chamber and one doesn't.

I'm going to focus on the neck as the distance by which the brass keeps the bolt open is about equal to the neck length so that might be a clue.

My Lyman manual puts max neck diameter at .343 inch. Factory ammo always chambers so Federal factory ammo right out of the box comes in between .337 - .339. Remington about .336 - .337. Winchester about .332 - .334.

Unsized brass straight out of my rifle comes in around .343 - 346 with most at .344.

The sized Lapua which chambers comes in around .334 - .335.

The sized Lapua brass that doesn't chamber comes in at .335 so basically the same as the other Lapua brass and less than the Federal factory ammo which always chambers.

Does it seem that I have eliminated the diameter of the neck as the cause or have I missed something obvious?

Out of interest I took the Lapua brass documented in the previous post and put it back through the neck sizing die. It now chambers in my rifle!

Now, as I'm pretty sure the diameter of the neck was not the problem does anyone else think that perhaps my neck sizing is pulling or pushing the shoulder back/forwards and causing my problem?

I know that even with things well lubed the expander ball feels quite tight when pulling it out of the neck of the brass. It is a Hornady neck sizing die. So, is it possible that in some instances I am pulling the shoulder too far forward? That would be difficult to measure but would the Stoney Point Gauge Gerry mentions allow me to measure this or just bullet seating depth?

Yes it is possible...it happens when people don't lube necks. I'm a fair fan of Hornady dies and would be surprised that the nice eliptical expander com bined with the fact that you are lubing the inside of the case necks would do this though.....but it is certainly a possibility. Sometimes hornady dies really squeaze down the case mouth....maybe your dies are doing that and the ball has to work hard to bring them back to dimension. How much bullet grip do you wind up with after using the Horn dies?? Ie if you measure the inside of the case mouth after using them is it like .305??

One las thought...I own a Hornady 308 caliber neck die and IT IS A UNIVERSAL NECK DIE.. This means it works for any 308 caliber case...from 308 to 300 wby. Have you set the die so that it stops on the neck area and doesn't bump the shoulder accidently...this could make a big diff. You must set the die so it stops just short of the shoulder or right at the junction of the shoulder and neck.

Thanks for the assistance kraky. I have set the die so it is just sizing the neck as mine is the same as yours and states it is a 30 cal die. It isn't touching the shoulder from what I can see.

I will measure the inside diameter of the necks when I get the chance but unfortunately that will not be until tomorrow now. However the details will follow as soon as I get the chance.

Ok, the inside diameter of the necks are as follows:

Lapua brass that will chamber: 0.303 - .304 inch

Lapua brass that will not chamber: 0.303 - 0.304

Fired and unsized Federal brass: .310

Sized Federal brass gave results the same as for the Lapua.

Does that look a bit tight? Again it occurs to me that perhaps the die is sizing the neck down very small and pulling the expander ball back through it is also pulling the shoulder forward.

Will try operating the die without the expander ball to see what size of neck I'm getting.

Edited to add that without the expander ball in the die I'm getting a neck size of about .295 inch. How does that fit with what others are seeing?

Right, I took 3 bits of Federal brass. 2 were the ones I put through the die without the expander ball and one had been fired in my rifle but was no resized or preped in any way.

I ran these 3 bits of brass through my neck sizer die with the expander ball in place. When I tested them in my rifle 2 of them chambered and one didn't. So, I used a marker pen to mark the body/shoulder/neck of the one that didn't chamber and here is the result:



As you can see it looks like the junction between the body and shoulder is rubbing in the chamber somewhere. The neck itself looks perfectly fine.

Then I measured the 3 bits of brass right at the body/shoulder junction and all 3 measured the same at .456. However, my Lyman manual shows a max for this of .454 so I wonder if I am on the edge of this not fitting and some very very tiny difference is what is causing my problem?

As ever all thoughts are welcome. Looks like I need to get the full length die out and fit it up.

Sounds like the gun is only gonna like fl sized brass. In all honesty I do not use my horn neck sizer for anything besides using the expander as a mandrel to open up virgin brass or to help in necking up brass. The reason is the design of the hornady die doesn't give good runnout. This is so because the brass is totally unsupported by the die as the expander ball is withdrawn and I found that concenticity is all over the place. With a straight pull rifle I wouldn't be looking to neck size for any reason anyhow....but that's just me.

Good points kraky, my feeling is that my neck sizing is in some way distorting the brass around that body/shoulder junction. I suspect that seating a bullet might, in some cases, be enough to make a marginal case impossible to chamber. This would all explain the seemingly random problems I was having.

As it is the margin between success and failure appears to be too small to measure with my calipers and for hunting loads maybe that is sailing too close to the wind anyhow.

So, now I have to go and pull all the bullets I've loaded and resize the cases :-(

I was using borrowed dies, am awaiting delivery of my own, and so don't have a FL die so it will be a while. Everything here in the UK takes a while! We used to laugh at the Russians taking years to get a car, that is nothing compared to getting a pound of powder, a box of bullets and a set of dies here in the UK.

I wouldn't bother pulling anything that chambers easily.

Before I went nuts, I would try a different neck sizing die. I really don't like RCBS, but that is personal preferrence. Just from what you have shown and said, it appears that the sizer button is sticking and pushing the neck down (instead of sizing it) and expanding the shoulder. I would either try a different die or buy an eliptical expander button from Hornady for your RCBS die. I think they make them for it. I also always use Imperial mica for neck sizing and it does very well. Try chanfering the case mouths before sizing, as well.

Just some thoughts.

Thanks for that Larry, it is actually a Hornady neck sizer that I'm using at the minute but I am going to try a different die to see if perhaps there is a problem with the Hornady. As you say it is starting to look as if the neck sizing is deforming the shoulder in some way. I suspect that I'm going to have to FL size the cases to get them back into shape. However, I'm new at this and it is all a learning process so the experience isn't lost.

OK, since it's Hornady try this first. Take out the decapper assembly and lightly polish the expander ball. I had to do this with a 308 I had. It worked all the kinks out for me. Don't do it enough to change the size, just polish it smooth. I chucked mine in the drill press and just hit it with some 600 grit paper, and then emery cloth. Try that first.