Smokeless gunpowder, including that used in artillery shells, is mostly nitrocellulose -- composed of ground cotton fibers processed in nitric acid. Seems that European powder manufacturers have been getting most of their nitrocellulose from China and are sounding the alarm that the supplies are subject to shortage, particularly due to China supplying Russia with the product. Curiously, the USA has huge volumes of cotton which can be processed into nitrocellulose, but we've tended to off-shore this industry for many years now. See the article: https://www.politico.eu/articl...make-weapons-europe/

Usually the cotton used is called linters. That's the fibers that are too short and small bits of bole. Basically the junk. Who knows who we sell it to!

Now how many gunpowder plants are there in the US?

I toured a Texas reserve ammunition in the early 1980’s. It was a plant built by the Greatest Generation. They remembered how difficult it was to ramp up production of war materials. And that was when America was an industrial giant. They built lots of reserve ammunition plants just in case a major war happened.

Close after the “End of History”, when democracy, peace and love truimped over evil, all of the Federal reserve plants were closed. The land was valuable, the buildings were razed at taxpayer expense, and sold for a song to politically well connect realtors, financiers, and family members of politicians.

So how many gunpowder manufacturer’s are there in the US?
I think one: https://www.longrangehunting.c...nited-states.241267/

And then there is one black powder manufacture. Black powder is used as a booster.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news...-goex-110000581.html

Don't worry, American troops will use spitwads to fight the Chinese. Our virtue signalling elites will embarrass the Chinese into submission with their victimology.

America is not an industrial giant, China is. China has 230 times the ship building capacity of the USA, one shipbuilding plant in China builds more tonnage than all of the USA ship yards. If American gets in a war with a country of 1.1 billion hard working Chinese, and America loses its battleship, it won’t be able to build another, before the Chinese crush the American land, air, and sea forces.

Back in the day Hercules was possibly the top powder producer in the States. They had a plant just up the road from me in Utah when I was a kid in the 60's-70's. Eventually the Hercules name went away and was replaced by Alliant. They to were the top dog gunpowder producer in the US. Alliant became ATK and eventually was bought out by Vista. They sold it all to Europe.

"Vista Outdoor Inc. is an American designer, manufacturer, and marketer of outdoor sports and recreation products. It operates in two markets: shooting sports and outdoor products. It is a "house of brands"[4] with more than 40 labels and subsidiaries. It trades under "VSTO" on the New York Stock Exchange.[5][6][7]

Vista Outdoor is the parent company to many ammunition makers, including Federal, CCI, and Remington.[8] In October 2023, the company announced that its firearms and ammunition business will be sold off to Czech company Czechoslovak Group for a value of $1.91 billion, pending regulatory approval.[9] [10] Vista's sale to CSG has been protested by senators J. D. Vance, John Kennedy, representative Clay Higgins and National Sheriffs' Association." [11]

Whatever happened to anti-trust laws? I guess its ok when the idea is to sell American interests down the river.

quote:

Originally posted by Live Oak:
Usually the cotton used is called linters. That's the fibers that are too short and small bits of bole. Basically the junk. Who knows who we sell it to!

Cotton linters are indeed the traditional source of cellulose for nitrocellulose. Didn't think anyone here would even know what linters are! Linters are used rather than staple cotton simply because they're cheap. But staple cotton can be "chopped up" to use just as well, it's just a bit more costly. Regardless, the cost of the raw cellulose to make "gun cotton" (nitrocellulose) is de minimus compared to the processing costs, so there's really no shortage of cotton for the process, just a shortage of facilities to do the process.

I think St. Marks in Florida is still producing ball powders, but the only stick powder producer in North America (to my knowledge) is in Canada.

Just more of the same. Create a crisis. Offshore production to create a risk of loss. Then tax the public to bring production back. Payback the industrial donor class with tax breaks and grants. Corrupt politicians keep their jobs and get kickbacks. And the circle continues.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Smokeless gunpowder, including that used in artillery shells, is mostly nitrocellulose -- composed of ground cotton fibers processed in nitric acid. Seems that European powder manufacturers have been getting most of their nitrocellulose from China and are sounding the alarm that the supplies are subject to shortage, particularly due to China supplying Russia with the product. Curiously, the USA has huge volumes of cotton which can be processed into nitrocellulose, but we've tended to off-shore this industry for many years now. See the article: https://www.politico.eu/articl...make-weapons-europe/

That said, Bobster, I think there is something to be said for fostering essential industries in our own countries. Globalism was really a flawed concept, as we saw during covid, and I don't think America or Western Europe should be beholden to a 'Communist' command economy like China for a product like this.

I wonder where ADI gets its cotton? We certainly grow plenty here.

quote:

Originally posted by Wstrnhuntr:
Back in the day Hercules was possibly the top powder producer in the States. They had a plant just up the road from me in Utah when I was a kid in the 60's-70's. Eventually the Hercules name went away and was replaced by Alliant. They to were the top dog gunpowder producer in the US. Alliant became ATK and eventually was bought out by Vista. They sold it all to Europe.

"Vista Outdoor Inc. is an American designer, manufacturer, and marketer of outdoor sports and recreation products. It operates in two markets: shooting sports and outdoor products. It is a "house of brands"[4] with more than 40 labels and subsidiaries. It trades under "VSTO" on the New York Stock Exchange.[5][6][7]

Vista Outdoor is the parent company to many ammunition makers, including Federal, CCI, and Remington.[8] In October 2023, the company announced that its firearms and ammunition business will be sold off to Czech company Czechoslovak Group for a value of $1.91 billion, pending regulatory approval.[9] [10] Vista's sale to CSG has been protested by senators J. D. Vance, John Kennedy, representative Clay Higgins and National Sheriffs' Association." [11]

Whatever happened to anti-trust laws? I guess its ok when the idea is to sell American interests down the river.

Vista is selling most of its brands to a Czech holding company.

quote:

Originally posted by sambarman338
I wonder where ADI gets its cotton? We certainly grow plenty here.

I would think that Australia can supply all of the linters that ADI can use. After all, a hectare can produce more than a metric ton of cotton fiber (depending on weather, irrigation, etc.)

Much powder for small arms is double-based, using a small percentage nitroglycerine. I'm not sure whether there is any shortage of that feedstock, but I doubt it.

Other powder components are typically coatings which help control the burning rate; I have no idea of their chemical composition, but the volume of those coatings is so small that I doubt that having any bearing on the availability of gunpowders.

Cotton is only a small cost. The chemicals to treat the cellulose are a bigger cost. There is also the cost to dispose of the spent acid. Then there is the danger! I had read that most nitroglycerine was produced for dynamite. Dynamite is extremely hard to get for any reason now. So production is probably very low now. There is another chemical that can be added instead of nitro that is cooler burning with more energy but produces smoke. I do not remember the name. Not good for smokeless powder. Graphite is one of the coating for the sticky nitrocellulose.

Thanks Stonecreek,
You would know ADI powders mostly through the Hodgdon name. It hadn't occurred to me that their rifle powders, at least, were double-based but some might be.

As to dynamite, I do have an idea what Live Oak's smoky chemical might be.

We also have a couple of biggish companies that make explosives for the mining industry and fertilisers for farmers, often quite profitable it seems.

bring back the rag man.. what the schmatta

I believe modern production of nitrocellulose uses processed wood pulp as the base rather than cotton. So, the kink likely lies elsewhere. Nitric and sulfuric acids are key components as are various solvents, like ethers, to wash the treated pulp.

quote:

Originally posted by Stonecreek:
Smokeless gunpowder, including that used in artillery shells, is mostly nitrocellulose -- composed of ground cotton fibers processed in nitric acid. Seems that European powder manufacturers have been getting most of their nitrocellulose from China and are sounding the alarm that the supplies are subject to shortage, particularly due to China supplying Russia with the product. Curiously, the USA has huge volumes of cotton which can be processed into nitrocellulose, but we've tended to off-shore this industry for many years now. See the article: https://www.politico.eu/articl...make-weapons-europe/

I think the other additive is nitroguanidine. Not normally added to small arms powder. Who cares if tanks and ships fire smokes. Space is precious and more energy per cubic inch is better!

quote:

I believe modern production of nitrocellulose uses processed wood pulp as the base rather than cotton.

Not usually.

If you'll read the article it points out that some European countries are experimenting with using wood-derived cellulose in the place of the cotton they were getting, mostly from China.

Cotton is almost 100% cellulose, whereas wood products contain a great deal of other matter which has to be processed out in order to have "pure" nitrocellulose to work with. Theoretically, you could use cellulose from any of a thousand plant species, but getting it to the point that it is usable is impractical with most.

quote:

Originally posted by Live Oak:
I think the other additive is nitroguanidine. Not normally added to small arms powder. Who cares if tanks and ships fire smokes. Space is precious and more energy per cubic inch is better!

Thanks Live Oak. I was thinking facetiously of something probably better mixed with fertiliser. Still, guanidine sounds like something to do with superphosphate, though googling doesn't suggest it is.