I am going to try something I have never tried before.

We have a custom built rifle on a Hall action, and has a Hart match barrel chambered for a tight neck 308 Winchester.

We have always had discussions on the effects of the primer on accuracy - especially using a magnum primer for ball powder.

We have standard large rifle primers from Federal - 210M.

We have primers from RWS - 5341 - which I understand are relatively cooler than the Federals.

And we have magnum primers.

I am going to shoot the same loads with the three different primers we have, and see what effect it has on both accuracy and velocity.

Any guesses of what the result might be??

I don't doubt it and it will depend on an individual rifle's preference.

Example 1 :I have 2 .300 Win Mag rifles, a Rem Sendero and a Blaser R93. The former accepts and groups the same with CCI250 and/or WLRM, while the latter shoots Ok with the CCI250 but groups twice as large with any other magnum primer.

Example 2 : I have 2 bbls. for my Sauer 202, a 7x64 and a .30-06.. Using the same N16O powder, the 7 mm barrel insists on CCI250 primers (it shoots oval groups with std. primers), while the .30-06 shoots best with WLR primers.

yes..

I have proved it to my satisfaction in a number of different rifles.

I have several rifles that group better with a particular primer. I would also suggest the ones that are primer sensitive tend to be larger cases. The 308 and smaller cases tend to be less sensitive to primer changes. Perhaps this test could be done with a larger case as well to see those results.

Yes will usually have an effect. The results will vary.

I do think they do..

quote:

Originally posted by Saeed:


We have always had discussions on the effects of the primer on accuracy - especially using a magnum primer for ball powder.

Agree with magnum primer for ball powder in a cartridge as small as the 400 Whelen, have seen that with my own eyes and Oehler 35P.
Magnum primer is mandatory in that situation or results will be erratic.
Rusty likes trying those ball powders, not me.
Impossible to get Ballistic Thermal Independence with ball powders.

It will be interesting to see how the standard and magnum primers compare in the slightly smaller .308 WCF with ball powder as well as with extruded powders. This might be some kind of dividing line where it makes a difference with ball powders in case capacity of 308 WCF versus 30-06?

I have only fired 6 combinations so far.

Federal 210M was best in 4 of them.

RWS was better in one and Federal 215 was better in one??!!

I agree the primer can make or brake a reload.

Al

At times the primer will make a difference in accuracy, POI and hang fires. roger

I have used all the name brand primers for a lot of years. I have been using CCI BR-2 primers for a while now. When loading less than 65 grains of powder they seem to shoot better for me. Could be my imagination thinking a bench rest has to be better. Right? Or maybe it is better, has worked pretty good for me so far.

I do a lot of shooting and reloading for a pastle of grandson's and Deer and Elk hunting buddies. I shoot all thier rifles for accuracy getting them ready for the hunt. For several years I used all the primers marketed, then examining my targets for accuracy noticed most of my best groups came with Federal primers. Now that is all I use, either 210 or 215 Match primers to be exact, and yes the Match does make a difference. I generally use the book reccomendations but occasionly I will make an exception. I have a very accurate post 64 Model 70 Winny that will drill three shot one holers with 180 grain Nosler Partition or Northfork bullets when I do my part, but with the 210M only, when I go to the Magnum 215M it takes my group to 1.5 inchs every time. Seven of my Elk hunting buddies use the same load with great success over the years. Just our experience for what it is worth. Good shooting.

quote:

Originally posted by phurley5:
I do a lot of shooting and reloading for a pastle of grandson's and Deer and Elk hunting buddies. I shoot all thier rifles for accuracy getting them ready for the hunt. For several years I used all the primers marketed, then examining my targets for accuracy noticed most of my best groups came with Federal primers. Now that is all I use, either 210 or 215 Match primers to be exact, and yes the Match does make a difference. I generally use the book reccomendations but occasionly I will make an exception. I have a very accurate post 64 Model 70 Winny that will drill three shot one holers with 180 grain Nosler Partition or Northfork bullets when I do my part, but with the 210M only, when I go to the Magnum 215M it takes my group to 1.5 inchs every time. Seven of my Elk hunting buddies use the same load with great success over the years. Just our experience for what it is worth. Good shooting.

Was the 180 gn Partition load for a standard cartridge (30-06, 308) or for a magnum case capacity of a particular flavor?

Well, my test is over, and I will scan and post the targets.

Summary is we shot a total of 22 lots of groups - 5 shots with each powder charge and primer.

Out of these, RWS was best in 4, Federal 210M was best in 15, and Federal 215 was best in 3.

Powders used were Varget, VVN540, VVN135, W748 and W760.

In my experience, sometimes primers make a difference, sometimes not. Specifically though, in non magnum calibers like the 7mm08, when using ball powders like H414, Ramshot Big Game, Win 760.....magnum rifle primers will tighten up groups as compared to using large rifle primers in the exact same loads. I've seen this numerous times since getting this tip from a very well respected and well known US outdoor writer, John Barsness. It can make a big difference.

Saeed - I thought you had run some primer accuracy tests before. Ones with Magnum and Std primers and some cold shots too. Maybe it was velocity tests.

I suspect there are differences in some primer and powder combinations. Maybe even by charge weights too.

While I am not a black powder cartridge shooter I had been reading some on it ahead of possible getting a Sharps. The thinking there had come full circle on primers. It had been to use a mag primer to get better or more ignition of the full charge.

Now for consistency and accuracy they were using a pistol primer with various black powders. Those are big cases with big charges. Not that any of that applies to smokeless rifle loads with much higher velocities.

As you know, bench rest guys are concerned with cases and prep and primers and then just consistency of powders. I know some of those guys just used primers by lots and then weighed them too.

Based on your reading your primer work before I just use Fed GMM 215 if it says Mag.

But I did see at least see some accuracy diffences in 270 Win with Win 780 powder between the Federal and Winchester primers. It at least seemed the Winchester primer was more accurate.

It could have been that they were Winchester cases loaded with Winchester powder and ignited by Winchester primers fired in a Winchester rifle. It knew.

I wish Winchester still made the silver primers that said they were for both standard and magnum loads! They just worked.

We are loading for a .300 Win Mag, sorry I did not note that in the original post. Good shooting.

I am 100% certain primers make a difference in accuracy of the 22 Hornet. I have not seen that phenomenon in larger cartridges, but I expect it exists to some degree.

I have a close friend who was a career match shooter for the Hawaii National Guard. He advised that, yes, primers, do make a significant accuracy difference. He has always used match type primers in reloads of 30-06, 300 H&H, 7.62 x 51, and 45 ACP. He still competes today at age 70.

I could happily load nothing but 210Ms and 215Ms for everything forever and never feel like I was missing anything. Trouble is, supplies don't always co-operate. There are also times when it doesn't matter much and shooting up the "off brands" makes sense.

The single brand that has given me the most trouble is CCI. I used to use the Benchrest primers in the 22/250 because an early one shot shot notably better with them. I continued to use hem because since it was the only cartridge using them it was a easy way to track round count on whatever my main coyote gun was at the time. After a long period of time it became evident that I was getting more than my share of misfires when the weather got cold. On the other end of the scale the CCI Magnums would produce a crazy amount of misfires with 90+ grain charges in 20 to 40 below temperatures. I fixed and checked everything you can fix and check on a rifle without helping before a simple swap to 215Ms solved it. If I had only judged the primers by warm weather accuracy and ES I would have sworn they were great. Even now, as I shoot up remaining stock in plinking and practice loads in nice weather I still predict a few misfires with the magnum cartridges and get them. I've had a standing offer to swap CCIs 2 for 1 for Federals and have never had a single person take me up on it. That includes all those that swore there was no difference and all those who swore that CCIs were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Nobody wanted to put their primers where their mouth was even when primers were like gold.

Another primer problem is loose fitting Remingtons.

Here are the results.

On each sheet, on the left is RWS primers, middle is Federal 210M and on the right is Federal 215.

Respective group and velocity for each load.

There does not seem to be any appreciable difference, except the Federal 210M seems to give better accuracy - at least in this rifle, and these powders.

Yes, in competitive shooting where to trim 1/8" from a group is cause for celebration, the primer has to be considered. In the real world of killing stuff, not so much.

Wow! Those are all bug hole in my opinion!

I am not into target shooting. But in hunting rifles where 1 inch groups are very good, I found that primers did make a difference. An accurate load with 1 inch group would open to 1.5 or even 2 inches with change in primer alone.

I found that sometimes using a Federal 215 Mag primers improved accuracy and sometimes it increased velocity but was less accurate.

I use Federal primers. Sometimes CCI. I have not used much of Winchester primer.

Superb documentation with pix of the groups and all pertinent data in one easy to understand proof of relationships.

Maybe not so much primer affecting or effecting accuracy as it is moderate powder loads?

Really easy to see that the lighter loads grouped better.

In a bolt rifle, why not choose the match primer from Federal? It is the original gold standard, but if can't get them or choose otherwise, looks like lighter loads are the best assurance of precision.

Rarely, if ever, have seen such a vivid demonstration of what causes "accuracy".

Kudos, most sincerely meant!

i have found that not having one definitely decreasing accuracy otherwise not much

I have tens of thousands of CCI primes so it makes no deferent to me.

It is interesting that in almost all cases the mag primers gave the lowest velocity. That seems counterintuitive to me.

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
It is interesting that in almost all cases the mag primers gave the lowest velocity. That seems counterintuitive to me.

The postings above showed the F215 with higher velocity than the F210M in most cases. The magnum primer is F215. The standard primer is F210Match. (The "M" is for "match grade", not for "magnum."

quote:

Originally posted by 416Tanzan:

quote:

Originally posted by Blacktailer:
It is interesting that in almost all cases the mag primers gave the lowest velocity. That seems counterintuitive to me.

The postings above showed the F215 with higher velocity than the F210M in most cases. The magnum primer is F215. The standard primer is F210Match. (The "M" is for "match grade", not for "magnum."

That explains it.

As to accuracy it may or may not, you could run test on this forever and probably get conflicting results, so much depends on the individual rifle I suspect..

I do know that a max load in my 9.3x62 with RL-15 and a Fed 210 is fine, but will "snug" up a bolt with a Fed. 215!

I have a friend who is a gunsmith who only uses federal, he particularly doesn't like CCI, he says they are too hard.
I have another friend who is a long time 1000yd benchrest shooter. Based on extensive testing he only uses CCI.

the above targets sure say a lot for the 168 grain Sierra Matchking as well as the shooter and the Hall barrel

From a hunters standpoint, I have never seen enough difference between primers to worry about it since a 1.5 inch group is as suitable as a 1.0 inch group..Bench rest, target or varmint would be a whole nuther ballgame however..

I use Fed. 210 and Fed 215, and have for years with acceptable results..I have used 210s and 215s in tests with several calibers and with both ball and stick powders with little if any difference in accuracy...but I'm a strong believer in high dollar good barrels as I believe the heart of any rifle ability to shoot is in the barrel,not in the components..

I use Lothar Walthar barrels almost exclusively and with them changing anything in my loads makes no difference as far as I can tell.

Crank up the air conditioner to 40 degree's F and do another test.

Excellent Data. Thanks for posting.