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| One of Us |
For those that are interested I tested some loads for my cz Rigby with Bertram Brass today. My manual states that the starting load for my powder of choice AR2209 as being 98gr for 2400 fps, the finishing load was 108gr for 2740 fps. Bertram Brass I developed loads up to 105 grains of powder and at this charge weight was getting pressure signs in that the bolt was a little difficult to open. I had no pressure signs at 102 grains of AR2209 which puts me just past the 2500 fps bracket with the 410 gr woodleigh soft noses. In summary what I thought might have been of interest to you guys was a comparison with the loads I developed in the Bertram Brass as compared to earlier work I did with the Norma Brass as many have commented on how soft Bertram Brass is. With the Norma Brass I managed to get to the 108 gr of AR2209 with one of the 8 shots showing pressure signs. Today I also took out 6 shots in Norma Brass loaded with 106 gr of AR2209 and had no pressure signs at all this load puts me in the 2600 fps bracket with the woodleigh. In conclusion (keep in mind my in experience and do not hesitate to correct me if I am wrong)it would seem the Bertram Brass is softer and can not be loaded to the same level as Norma Brass at least. I suppose the game being shot will never know the difference between the 410 woodleigh moving at 2600 fps or 2500 fps. And according to the ballistics chart the 410 gr woodleigh is 10 inches low at 300 yards with a muzzle speed of 2600 and 11 inches low at 300 yards if muzzle speed is 2500 fps. (BC for the 410gr sn was .375) So I ask the question does this brass softness pose a major problem if we are only losing 100 fps (in my case anyway) or is there another problem I am overlooking. By the way I have only been handloading for the past 18 months. Regards PC
[This message has been edited by PC (edited 01-24-2002).] | ||
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one of us |
Hi PC, Very interresting post (be safe for tese loads too). I can believe you that the Norma brass in .416 Rigby are made for a higher presure tolerance then others. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Beer007, I was particulary interested yesterday in working out which recipie will be the one I stick with, and now I will be settling on the 102 gr of AR2209 with the 410 woodleigh. I had only just put on my scope and it was not bore sighted so by the time I got roughly sighted I had no more rounds loaded. The bulk of my Brass is Bertram and I have no choice but to use it and stick with a load thats safe in that Brass. My friend and I are going out shooting tommorow, and when the game has it's afternoon siesta before our evening shoot we will sight the .416's in with the above mentioned load and shoot for groups. I will post the results. My scope has so far held up; 2-7 leupold vx11 ( I have decided that this scope suits my applications). Recoil was not at all devastating over the bench, I just rolled up my gun bag and put it between the butt and my shoulder, and had a bag under the front and under but. I held the forearm with my hand resting in the sand bag. I did notice that my eyes seem to vibrate in my head. I did not see any reason to punish myself and not use the gun bag between my shoulder and the rifle. Regards PC. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC, The main equasion in this formula is a rifle is only as strong as the brass case, otherwise it blows... Another issue is how long the brass will last and Bertram will not last long. I have, like you found Bertram to be about the worst brass available today and have many incidense to convience me of that...it splits or seperates rather quickly... ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Well Ray when it is all said and done the sooner it wears out the sooner I buy some Norma cases. Also Ray just a question my cz Rigby is the most difficult rifle I own in so far as removing copper it takes heaps of work to get it all out. Have you or anyone experienced this with cz's, it also had heaps of copper in it from new most likely due to the test loads they fire in it. Also those couple of rounds I fired were the bolt was difficult to raise would they have done any damage to my boltface?. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC, I'll be very interrested to know the results of your new tests. Reagrding CZ rifle, I own one CZ 550 Mag in .458 Win Mag Safari rechambered in .458 Lott. And I have planned to purchase an other CZ same model in .375 H&H to rechamber in .375 RUM. I have never had the things that you describe regarding copper,... with my CZ. But I always shot jacketed bullet with my hot loads 1 or 2 gr less than max loads and heavy crimp. Are you sure that Rigby case are undamaged after have been fired in you rifle? ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Beer007, The Bertram cases are not damaged, even those loads which were to hot and caused the bolt to be sticky did not exhibit "to the naked eye" any sign of damage. The only sign I got that these loads were to hot was the bolt being hard to lift back up. This problem did not occur at all when the load was 102 gr. The copper in the Barrell was like that from new. I gave it a clean befor shooting for the first time and some 90 patches later I still had blue tinges, I was worried about barrell damage as I do not like to have a rod up the barrell anymore than is necessary. My thoughts on this problem are that the barrell was never lapped properly and subsequently the bore is rough, I beleive after a couple of hundred rounds the projectiles will smooth the barrell. You could see the copper on the lands around the muzzle. Will to much bronze brushing not be good for it? Test accuracy sheet supplied with the rifle was good at 100 yards the group was 1 inch. May be they used solids for testing and due to lack of constriction leave more copper in the barrell and they probably did not clean it after testing. But still 90 odd patches for a new gun have you ever heard of it before?!. Regards PC ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC Same situation here, almost. Haven't looked hard for the copper, and haven't used Shooter's choice, yet, but even patches with Hoppe's don't come out white. Since I'm mainly afraid of over-cleaning and rust, the truth is that I have not really cleaned my barrel the first time, yet, although both brush and patches regularly visit there. Maybe I'll do a very light J-B routine, followed up with Shooter's Choice, but I just can't get very enthused about over-cleaning a barrel that shoots and won't rust. Anyone who thinks I'm screwing up is certainly welcome to say so! TIA | |||
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| one of us |
PC and Recono, I think you'd use the 3 brushes cleaning set : one in copper, one in nylon and one in coton. I use these brushes not all the time but one time a month. Without any other products. After that I use patches with shooter's choice or other products. I think it is the reason why I have never had this kind of problem. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
I have given my barrell a fair old scrub with a bronze brush in .44 cal I asked my gun dealer if this was alright and he stated that the bronze is to soft to hurt the rifling that in actual fact the bronze is softer than the copper on a bullet. I do not think we Aussies have access to those products you mention Beer007. I use sweets and hoppes and oil, I just beleive that in this case shooting will smooth the roughness out of the bore and it will progressively get easier to clean. Put some sweets or equivelent down that Barrell Recono and I would bet you get some copper out, is your cz only new?. I have grown to really like these rifles, and I do beleive one in .375 H&H may have to join my .416 Rigby in my cabnit before this year is out. I have started paying off a 602 in .375 but that is getting converted to .585 calibre. Beer007 & Recono what groups are you getting from your CZ's? I'm heading out to shoot some groups with this rifle at a place only 15 minutes away this morning, was supposed to go to my parents farm for an all day shoot, but it will be 37 degrees today and a "total fire ban day" across the state of Victoria. My father does not like shooting on these days as he thinks we may start a fire. We always have this argument I say it is impossible due to smokeless powder but he reckons if you hit a rock it may produce a spark. I did not think lead produced sparks. Thats "off topic" anyway's I will post the results of my groups and my mates groups. Thanks folks for your help PC. ------------------ | |||
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PC, I do not think we Aussies have access to those products you mention Beer007. Why Aussies can't have access to these products? I have some brushes in .45 caliber send me an e-mail through my e-mail address on my profile. And we can seen what I can do for you. My CZ rifle is brand new and rechambered in .458 Lott. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Your probably dead right as I took a couple out that were 2 grains under the starting load and yesterday and the bolt was hard to lift on them, usually if the bolt is hard to lift my primers are starting to creep out and this is not happening in this case. I am about to head out again now as we forgot table rests and everything the other day and could only get 3 inch groups at 100 yards resting over a stump. ------------------ | |||
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| <500 AHR> |
PC, That is exactly how I figured it out. Let me know what you find out. Todd E | ||
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| One of Us |
Yeah Todd that's all it is, with some shells I don't have problems lifting the bolt handle up at all, no pressure signs in the eleven shots I just fired, all inall it is pretty poor quality control don't you agree?. At 100 yards I shot a 1.78 inch group. And at 50 Yards I shot a .700 group. The rifle and load shoots better than I can (I am also still getting used to it, and expect to improve as I gain experience), usually I have a bipod and bag under the butt and can get good groups, obviously with the .416 I have to hold the forend and I just can't hold it steady enough to shoot any better. I have never had a rifle with this much power before and I am looking forward to shooting some game with it. My groups were an inch to the left and an inch lower than what I want so I just wound it an inch to the right and an inch higher and it should be exactly were I want it. Being a leupold the tracking should be reliable enough that this should result in the correct point of impact, do you folks agree?. I mean there are target shooters, snipers etc. whom adjust there scopes according to range and wind etc. and then expect the tracking to be spot on, am I thinking correctly or what?. How many shots do you think I will get out of this .416 Barrell before accuracy suffers. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Beer007, thanks for that, but now I am having no trouble getting the copper out with sweets and hoppes managed to get it all out after the last session with just a few patches. Maybe the barrell has smoothed out now and lapped it'self. Beer007 I would be interested in hearing how your load developemnt goes with the lott it is a calibre that interests me, have you bedded your stock? or replaced it?. My Rigby stock cracked after 8 shots, it now wears a custom fiberglass stock. Regards PC ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC, You aren't very lucky with your hot loads in your CZ .416 Rigby. In fact it is not a .458 Lott, it is a .458 Watts, I use full length size of .375 H&H brass. For the .458 Lott the brass is trimed to 2.800", for the .458 Watts the brass has 2.850" of length (you can put a few grains more). Up to now I have shot my .458 Watts only with a 500 gr Honardy bullet for fire forming cases with same load as full load in .458 Win Mag. After that I have put one grain of powder more then previous load. Why I haven't put 5 grains more than .458 Win Mag loads? I develop my load together with my gunsmith. Our goal is to reach a velocity between 2255 and 2300 fps in SAFE conditions and not more. I have asked in previous messages the possibility to use full lenght .416 Rem Mag brass to have a little bit more powder capacity. There no name for this wilcat, but case measure of both cartridge (.375 H&H and .416 Rem Mag) are nearly the same. But after neck up to .458 all these cases are the same. I haven't done test with .416 Rem Mag case because in Belgium I can't find it.
As you love big bore I have heard that in a CZ Magnum rifle it's very easy to rechamber it in .450 Rigby or .450 Dakota. The most important thing it's to find a real good gunsmith. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Beer007 it is just part of the fun of reloading and getting everything right. That load is not hot as I have showed the shells to my gundealer and he has said there not exhibiting pressure signs at all. I think that Todd has hit the nail on the head with the extracter grooves as even loading under the manuals starting loads produced a difficult to open bolthandle, "not very difficult" but just sticking. This does not happen with the Norma Brass. Beer007 what is your opinion on the reliability of tracking in scopes, in relation to my mention of the above (making the final adjustment an inch higher and an inch right). If the scope is doing what it is meant to do you should be able to make an adjustment for example move it an inch higher and it should do it, do you agree?.
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one of us |
When I was developing hot loads for my .416 Rigby, I ran right into the same stuff you guys have. However, I also took some 416 wby brass and turned off the belt. These cases would consistently let me duplicate .416 WBY ballistics with no signs of overpressure. If you section a .416 WBY case and a .416 Norma Rigby case you will see why. In the end,however, I deceided that a 410 gr bullet at 2400fps was all I wanted for hunting and I was right. Big Boom with Bullet Blow-up wasn't the right approach.-Rob | |||
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| one of us |
PC, I'll give an very good advice regarding your loads. I suppose you have chronographed your shots, but this can give you on part of pressure reach. It will more important to have a machine which calculate the pressure in CUP for each round fired. I don't know if it is easy to get it for you from your gunsmith, at your shooting range, a friend,.... This is the only and the best way to know realy the pressure for each round fired. You need this machine only one time in order to test all your loads. When you'll reach the max CUP with one round that will be you ultimat load. Beer007 what is your opinion on the reliability of tracking in scopes, in relation to my mention of the above (making the final adjustment an inch higher and an inch right). If the scope is doing what it is meant to do you should be able to make an adjustment for example move it an inch higher and it should do it, do you agree?. What are your shooting position? What are you shooting distance? Beer007 why can't you order some .416 rem mag cases from America and have them sent over.? I just need very few brass, only for test it. The quantity that I want is max 20 brass. Too expensive to import these from US just to fire it one time. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Ber007,The distance I was shooting at was 100 yards, the scope is supposed to be 4 clicks=1 inch at 100 yards. I have never heard of a pressure machine, what is the cup for a .416 Rigby? ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC, I'm not sure, but I think Oehler (the chronograph people) make some sort of a strain guage set-up. Don't know how it works or how it's calibrated. For what it's worth, which is damned little, the C.I.P. (.416 Rigby governing body) pressures for .416 follow. However, I recommend getting Art Alphin's book and reading it, then being very conservative in following advice you see elsewhere. The CZ 550 Magnum action is a good action, and DOES have some margin of safety. However, it is an investment-cast piece, and, from my limited understanding of metal & guns & rapid production of gases, not quite the same thing as a Wells or Johansen. CIP on .416 Rigby: Method.......Max Average......Max Individual Above figures from Art Alphin's A-Square reloading manual, available from Sinclair. Thanks for the reminder about Sweet's. I'll try it. I would like to answer your question on accuracy, but I can't yet. I am getting old, and the vitreous humour in my fully-functioning eyeball is in the process of separating from (so far) my retina. This is a pretty common thing in old folks, and isn't in and of itself such a terrible thing, but the retina can tear while this is happening. While my opthalmologist thinks it will be OK to play with big-bore rifles once the detachment is complete, it is obviously not advisable now. I had really only gotten as far as load development and sighting in the scope before the situation came up. [This message has been edited by Recono (edited 01-29-2002).] | |||
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| one of us |
PC, Recono have posted a very good reply. I have nearly same pressure limits for .416 rigby than Recono. I can't tell you more than CUP testing equipments. An other solution to know pressure, find a laboratory in ballistic. For some bucks, they will analyse your cartridges and you will know pressure of these with a great precision. [B]Ber007,The distance I was shooting at was 100 yards, the scope is supposed to be 4 clicks=1 inch at 100 yards. In fact yes. ------------------ | |||
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| One of Us |
Thanks for the help it has been great, I have looked through a lot of postings on all the forums here and there does seem to be a lot of complaining about Bertram Brass and its softness. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC, This is what I told you in my previous posts. Go with Norma brass for hot loads and use Bertram brass only for light loads. ------------------ | |||
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| one of us |
PC You should check the case capacity of both brands with water. Use fired cases with dead primer still in, fill to top of neck with water then pour water out and weigh it. Would do 3 or 4 cases of each. Think you may find the bertram has less case capacity because of the step at the web. If less capacity then of course less powder for the same pressure and less fps | |||
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| one of us |
PC, Sorry for the late response to your questions .... Most factory barrels are a little rough but any barrel will smooth out with use...A barrel does not need to be squeeky clean and void of copper wash, if that were so then we would not have to fire fouling shots after we clean them...Just clean in normally and forget about the copper....If it is shooting well then you OK...clean it every 20 or 30 shots and enjoy.... I use BarnesX cleaner, I figure the folks that make the most gooey, coppery fouling bullet in the world are the most qualified to know what will clean them ------------------ | |||
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...Use a Nylon brush and patches and follow directions..remember you don't have to get it all out, don't need to..oil it good after cleaning...