Ha. You're probably wondering what this is all about, but you helped me out and didn't know it. More specifically, your Blue Dot .223 loads may have helped me figure out a loading issue I have been having.

Kind of a long story, but I have this new Encore barrel in .223. It is a Bergara, and is very tight chambered. One of the tightest I have ever worked with. It is also short throated. Anyways, I haven't been playing with it for very long, but I had been a little frustrated with it. It is one of those barrels that you just feel like it could really shoot well, but I just haven't been able to quite get it there. I mean groups haven't been bad by any means, but it is just like you can feel it trying to shoot really good, but can't quite make it.

I was shooting some load developement groups last night, and it acted like it was really trying to shoot, but kept throwing a shot every now and then. Just enough to make things not make sense as far as charge weights. Powder was AA2230, and bullets were 55 V-Maxes. Right before I left I shot a 5 shot group using 10 grains of Blue Dot and 40 grain V-Maxes. Those five shots went into a little over 1/2 inch. It blew my mind.

After I got home, it kept bothering me, why it would shoot that load and not the others. I got my targets out, and all the other loads were vertical stringing, throwing one shot every now and then, but horizontally they were very tight. I kept asking myself what was different about the Blue Dot loads besides the obvious? There was something making it throw shots vertically ever now and then. Then the light came on.

Seating depth. You heard me mention this gun is tight chambered and short throated. Well, it is short throated to the point I can barely seat bullets deep enough with my Redding dies to get the bullets off the lands. Using a couple different methods, I was thinking my regular loads were only about .005 to .008 off the lands with the bullet seater bottomed out. I was thinking that should be enough, even though I would like more.

Well, the Blue dot loads were different. Shorter bullet, there wasn't very much of it in the case, even with the seater bottomed out. So, I screwed the die body in a little deeper into the press so I could crimp them, since I wasn't happy with the amount of bullet in the case. It didn't change overall length by alot, maybe .015 or .020, but it was enough.

I think my problem is I am closer to the lands than I think on my regular loads, maybe right in that range where every now and then one is just touching when the others aren't. So I stripped my die and looked at it. I can't relieve inside the die body, if I do it will take the roll crimp off the top. So I checked the seater stem with some different bullets, and it looked like where they were touching up in the stem I could take .030 or so off the bottom of the stem without affecting where the seater touched the ogive. So this morning I chuck it up in the lathe and was able to take .035 off the bottom of the stem without affecting where the stem touched the ogive of the bullet. I should now be able to get those bullets in enough deeper to clear my problem up.

Anyways, thanks for those Blue Dot loads, they helped me find a problem. And they shoot real nice too. Tight groups, and they are about 2" lower that the normal loads. Which is also very nice, it puts them dead on at 100 since my normal loads are about 2" high. Means they are zeroed perfect for what a fellow would be using them for, which is short range critter gettin'.

As a little update, I ran home real quick at lunch today with my modified seating stem, bumped some of those loads about .015 deeper into the cases, and shot two groups. The vertical stringing is gone now, looks like I may have fixed the problem. It was a little windy for real precision work, but good enough to know that I know I have something better to work with now.

Now I can re-run some of the tests I shot last night.

Hi,
Thanks for the report, it brings some new thinking in my mind. Interesting!
I've used Seafires loads and love them.
David

You all might want to take a look at this thread which Seafire started concerning Blue Dot Ka-Booms. One of our Reloaders came as close as possible to having one without it actually happening. When you see Ben Amonette's post, he works for Alliant Powder and recommends against using Blue Dot in Down-Loads.

I used to be a strong supporter of them myself, but no more. I'd sure feel bad if one of you or your children got hurt because of using Blue Dot in Down-Loads and I'd remained quiet. Way too many "Powder Manufacturer Approved" Down-Loads for anyone to be taking the chance on experiencing a problem due to using an inappropriate Powder.

Bottom line is, there are plenty of Factory Tested Down-Loads available. If you choose to use one which has the potential to hurt you, your friends or your family, at least you have been told not to.

Best of luck to you all.

Thanks Hot Core, for the link. I did read it all, with an open mind. I have also read many other threads on Blue Dot in the .223, as I am by nature fairly conservative on such things. However, after carefully considering all the information presented, I am not overly concerned about the safety of the Blue Dot loads in the .223. I am not hot-rodding them, or trying to make them into something they are not. If I want full house loads (and I do shoot a good amount of them), then I will load them with appropriate powder. I do appreciate your concern for mine and others safety. The link was very interesting and thought provoking reading thoough.

Hey JTP, I appreciate your reply. Darn shame though, cause there are a lot of excellent "Factory Tested and Approved" Down-Loads in the Manuals.

I do hope you don't have a Ka-Boom because of them. Best of luck to you.

Reducing loads with fast powders is the only way to do it safely, slow pwders are said to likely to produce the so-called secondary explosion effect.

HOWEVER, even though these loads are slower they are also high-pressure loads, only the pressure spike is shorter and thus, the surface under the curve that does the physical work is smaller.

I compare that with handgun loads like thge .45 ACP, .45 LC or .38 Sp. WC with very little fast powder for a big case. There is no doubt that this is safe, why shouldn't oit work as well with rifle cases?

Just do not go for max performance and pressure, when you want to do so, use normal loads with rifle powders.

The #1 risk with these loads IMHO is double charging. I always check TWICE, every case.

German ballistic institute DEVA, bullet manufacturer Haendler and Vihta publishreduced loads, in most cases with N110 which Vihta specifically recomends for that purpose.

I did have a KaBoom one time, back in the early 90's. It was in a Remmy 40XBKS in .220 Swift. Funny thing was, I was using a "manufacturers approved" powder and load, and was nowhere near the max in any manual I could find. I even pulled the rest of the charges to make sure I had weighed charges correctly, and I had. I had worked up from the bottom with H-380 watching for the traditional signs of pressure, and all of a sudden, halfway up through the suggested range, it locked that rifle up solid. Had to send it back to the Remmy Custom shop, and they had to unscrew the barrel to get it open. They couldn't find anything wrong with the length of brass or any other factors related to reloading technique that could have caused the problem. In short, it was a high quality firearm, with a load that should have been safe, that was loaded using correct technique, and it still happened. Things do happen in life for unexplained reasons.

I guess what I am saying, is that Kabooms can happen with any powder, even "approved" ones. And they can happen with powder charges that "should" be safe. I am not shooting anywhere near max with Blue Dot, I am not pushing the envelope. And I know they are not reduced pressure loads, merely ones that use less powder. The reason I am using the Blue Dot is that I have alot of it on hand for shotgun and .357 loads, and if I honestly felt they were unsafe, I would not shoot them. I can only find two examples of anything like a kaboom with them, one is in an action type it should never have been used in due to cycling issues, and in the other case, who knows? It would be like me saying that H-380 is not a safe powder for the .220 based on my one experience. FWIW, I did chunk the rest of that pound of powder that time. I had already shot well over half of it anyways, and was just not willing to risk a repeat when I got that rifle back. I have never had any other powder cause a problem in that rifle either, before or since.

quote:

Things do happen in life for unexplained reasons.

Yes they do.

Best of luck to you.

Hot Core-

I hope you have not taken my posts in the wrong way, I do appreciate the discussion and I am always intersted in knowing as much about a subject as I can. FWIW you have made me look into this issue pretty deeply, which I am sure was your intent.

I have run across some very interesting things in the process, including this link on how these double based pistol powders burn. While this article deals with reduced loads in CAS, the description of how the primer flash lifts the flakes of powder and ignites them was interesting to me and something I had suspected. It also explains why it is not a wise idea to reduce the slower burn rate powders below a certain level. I am not trying to change your mind, just putting out some info I think you might find interesting.

http://www.gmdr.com/lever/pistolpowi.htm

quote:

Originally posted by JTPinTX:
...I hope you have not taken my posts in the wrong way, ...

Naw man, I think you understood my intent perfectly and gave fine responses. We don't have to agree 100% on everything. Being able to disagree is fine as long as you are aware of the potential issue. I just feel obligated to let a person know when he might be "uninformed or mislead" about a specific Reloading problem.

I did "learn" from your experience with the Swift. I'd have bet all of "Seafire's, Vapo's, Wood's, Doc's and Bartsche's" money , that would never have happened. Just goes to show that "unexplained things" do happen, exactly as you said.

I prefer to reduce the possibilities of a Ka-Boom for myself as much as possible. But everyone should do what they want - as long as I'm not sitting beside them.

I still wish the best of luck to you - as it seems you will need it.