The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Resized brass won't chamber 243 WinGo | New | Find | Notify | Tools | Reply | |
| Resized brass won't chamber 243 Win | Login/Join |
| One of Us |
I can't believe it, but I looked at my records and discovered I've owned my FN Mauser Mannlicher for 5 years and have fired exactly one round. The day I went to test fire it I fired one shot, a bulls eye, and it started raining. I was getting things together to shoot it, and found some range brass I picked up, all the same head stamps, all once fired from the same box. I smeared with Imperial sizing wax and ran 20 through my RCBS dies I bought 5 years ago. I cleaned them off and decided to be sure they would chamber since I'd never used these dies to load this rifle, just to be sure. Wouldn't chamber, so I resized after checking the die adjustment again, 1/4 turn after contact with the shell holder. Looked at RCBS FAQ and it says if this happens check die adjust and if it still happens, send the die and 5 fired cases in and they will check to see if the chamber is standard size. I decided to resize the one fired case and see if it would chamber, and it did. So my rifle will only chamber brass that is new or fired in my rifle. No brass fired in another chamber is an option in my rifle with these dies. A limiting option I'm not happy about. I called RCBS and told them the situation. They told me a small base die may fix the problem. They said the resizing die doesn't restore the case to new ammo dimensions, but to SAAMI minimum. So either my chamber is tighter than SAAMI minimum or the dies don't size to SAAMI minimum. My option is to forget using any brass not fired in my rifle, get another die, or send the die and 5 cases to RCBS. Ever had a die set that wouldn't sufficiently resize any brass to chamber, but only brass fired from that chamber? I'm going to borrow a sizing die and see if it does any different than my die. The resized range brass measures about .005 bigger at several points compared to the resized brass fired from my rifle. | ||
|
| One of Us |
That's a bummer. Once you buy case gages you find that the advice to size to the shell holder plus a quarter turn is, how do I put this nicely?, :bogus. If your cases are too fat, the average Wilson gage would not help, because the Wilson gage only measures the distance between shoulder and base. It is cut large so you can get an accurate estimate of chamber headspace in bolt rifles from fired cases. Because auto guns open up while there is still residual breech pressure, trying to guess chamber headspace from fired brass is futile and potentially dangerous.  Too bad I don't see a 243 Sheridan case gage. http://www.sheridanengineering.com/index-1.htmI purchased a slotted gage for 308 Win and 30-06 and these neato gages are cut to SAAMI minimum dimensions. I think these things are just great and seeing that I had a little clearance around the case neck, and forward of the case neck, made me feel better about my Garand ammunition.  | |||
|
One of Us |
Make sure your die is bumping hard against the shell holder, some cam over is good. That should do it. I have never seen a need for small base dies; they are just nonsense promoted by die companies. Check your die to shell holder and get back. Case gauges tell you nothing about your chamber, or dies. Use your chamber as your gauge, as that is what the ammo has to fit. And yes,, all these things are made with tolerances, and sometimes, they overlap, and don't work. Then try new dies. I have had dies that would not size enough to fit chambers, but it never was the OD. Always the length. I have also shortened dies for min or below, chambers. | |||
|
One of Us |
I think that's a good move. Let us know what happens. Check case lengths and size with no expander. Check case lengths again.  rogerOld age is a high price to pay for maturity!!! Some never pay and some pay and never reap the reward. Wisdom comes with age! Sometimes age comes alone.. | |||
|
one of us |
Why not send the fired cases and dies to RCBS? They will rework the sizing die to your chamber and you will have a minimum of brass hardening. I have done this with a couple of rifles and it is great for brass life and free. The only downside may be that cases sized in your dies may not fit someone else's rifle but I have never found this to be the case. Pun intended.  Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
|
| One of Us |
I suspect they charge hundreds of dollars for this service; it is more cost effective to check other makes of dies. And make sure yours are adjusted right. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I've been given the advice to size a case in a 308 sizing die to see if it will chamber then. I have a couple of full length 308 dies and a Redding body die. I will try the body die and see what happens. The shell holder was certainly tightly striking solidly against the base of the sizing die. Slamfire - The Sheridan case gauge is a cool bit of kit. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This is more common than you think. A quick and easy way to get the brass sized enough it to put a feeler guage between the case head and shell holder bottom, start at .003", size, check fit, if it doesn't chamber, try .005", check fit, no go, go to .008", and so on until you .015" if needed, but, no more. This will tell you how much material to remove from the TOP of the shell holder, I would buy a separate shell holder, modify it, and keep it seperate. I have had to do this with chambers that are tight, it works, after firing in that chamber, it rarely gets too tight to chamber again! Cheers.  | |||
|
| One of Us |
You say it was "tightly striking solidly", but was/is it camming over? | |||
|
One of Us |
Just run them through a small base 308 die with the expander ball removed, then size normally. You'll only have to do it once. http://www.midwayusa.com/produ...r-die-308-winchester | |||
|
| One of Us |
Yes it cammed over. I sized some with the 308 body die. There was more resistance when entering the die suggesting the diameter was being reduced. The shoulder was pushed back some and since it is a 243 case in a 308 die, it leaves a slight ridge where the case is smaller than a 308. I will check to see if it chambers tomorrow. I'll be surprised if it does with the ridge. I need to try another 243 sizing die. | |||
|
| Administrator |
If the differences are very small, you can solve the problem by taking some metal off the top of the shell holder. We have one specifically for this purpose, and seems to work. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Maybe I'm expecting too much from a sizing die. I may wrongly assume that a sizing die should enable malleable, not work hardened brass, fired from any chamber to fit into a minimum spec chamber. I'm reminded that Wilson makes case holders for their trimmers for "new brass" and for "fired brass" If sizing dies returned fired brass to new brass dimensions, there would be no need for two different case holders. I don't know why new brass isn't the same dimension as resized brass. Maybe new brass is small to fit into any chamber, resized brass is OK if it can fit into most chambers. Maybe most presses can't exert the force required to size to new dimensions, or it overworks the brass, or that much sizing risks case sticking. | |||
|
One of Us |
I've recently come across the same problem when loading 7mm-08 cartridges. Having owned the Lyman dies for many years and loading for 3 other rifles over these years I suddenly found that I was getting reloaded cartridges, not all, that were a little tight when chambering in my Marlin XS7 rifle. Despite adjusting the FL die so the shell holder bumped hard against the die mouth, some cases were still tight to chamber. Tried another brand shell holder I had to hand but no improvement. A sheet of wet & dry paper on a flat steel plate and work away on facing off the shell holder probably about half the depth of the shallow shell holder make and number stamped on the face. Solved the problem and perfect sizing of any brand of case now including those originally fired in other rifles. Obviously the Marlin has a tighter chamber than the other rifles I've loaded for but a simple and quick fix. Saeed has posted the same fix above. | |||
|
| one of us |
Most likely you have a minimum spec chamber. I have a 243 that is that way and no amount of fooling around with the fired brass well make it fit. Tried 3 different die sets by different makers tried adjusting them every way 50 years of reloading experience would indicate one should do. It has a youth stock on it and I loan it out to youth that need to get started I tell the parents to buy WW PP 100gr and go shoot deer. I have far to many rifles to worry anymore about one that causes a problem reloading for. | |||
|
| one of us |
Me too, works great. Remember, forgivness is easier to get than permission. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I'd be leery about thinning the shell holder or shortening a die for a bottle neck case that headspaces on the shoulder as this will result in shoulder set back and may produce excessive headspace. If your cases won't chamber because they are too fat don't shorten the die! Try a small base die first. Jerry Liles | |||
|
| One of Us |
Possibly part of this may result from modern die design philosophy and/or more precise manufacturing. Possibly in the past it was easier to make dies on the smaller side instead of more precise. If RCBS makes dies now that work brass less and deal with more customer service issues as a result, I commend them. The customer service rep I talked to seemed to be speaking from a position of confidence in the dimensions of their product. They may have quick and simple ways of verifying dies now they didn't used to have. I would not be surprised that at some point die dimensions were assumed to be correct simply because a known reamer machined them. My sizing die, which doesn't seem to do much sizing, based on press effort, may be doing little body sizing on new brass once fired in my rifle. It may be a perfect match to my rifle and might be nearly a custom match to it as long as I only use brass fired from new. This full length sizer might effectively be a neck aizer. Instead of having a problem, I may have gotten very lucky. | |||
|
| One of Us |
This is why I use case gages to determine just how much I am pushing the shoulder back. If you can measure a phenomena, you can control a phenomena. I have removed material from the bottom of a die and the top of the shell holder to get cases within headspace. Sometimes the die is too long, or the shell holder too tall. Without gages, you don't know what is going on because you cannot measure what you are doing. You can only philosophize. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The brass that wouldn't chamber does after being run through a Redding 308 body die. I tested one just run through the body die, and one that went through the body die then back through the 243 FL sizing die. They both chambered. I talked to RCBS customer service again and told them about the brass chambering after running it through the Redding 308 body die. She suggested it does the same as a small base die, although I doubt Redding would claim their body die is small base. She continues to claim that RCBS FL sizing dies will allow brass fired in that rifle to chamber in it, but not brass fired in other rifles. I suggested if your dies are designed to be used that way and have that limitation, that info should be in the FAQ on their website and in catalog info about their dies. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Once you determine what the problem is, then you will know how to solve it. Is it a Diameter or length issue? If OD, then you need new die; if case base to shoulder, then you need a Shorter die, which I have done many times to fit tight chambers. If you look at SAAMI tolerances for brass, ammo, and chambers, it is a wonder at all that anything fits as well as it does. There are major overlaps in the system, and then you add in all the die makers, who have to allow for all the brass and rifle makers tolerances too. And remember, there is no law that says that any maker has to follow SAAMI anyway. Yes, there is some, no a lot, of luck involved. Lesson might be; don't use pick up brass. Of course, when one shortens a die, he has to make sure it will produce correctly headspaced (I know, wrong term), ammo for his particular rifle. You don't want to shorten your brass when the problem is diameter; that would be foolish. Another thing; reamers wear, so a new reamer will produce a larger die, and chamber. When they wear, the hole gets smaller; remember the generous tolerances allowed in the system. We hold car engine cylinders to far smaller tolerances than we do rifle chambers. If people knew how sloppy they are allowed to be, it might scare them. One example; belted brass and chamber tolerance is allowed to be at least .014 difference; that is positively huge. One more thought; that brass you picked up was fired in a larger chamber, we know that, BUT, it also might just be some very springy brass that does not respond to your sizing die; whereas another brand of brass fired in that same large chamber, might. More luck. | |||
|
| one of us |
I had this same problem with 308 brass from one rifle chamber not fitting in a second rifle and new brass not fitting in the same rifle if fired once or twice.I was using a special chamber sized rifle.Using a full length die and filing down the top of the case holder was the only solution I found.The special chamber size was my smith's idea.That did not turn out that well. | |||
|
new member |
If you have a carbide 45acp resizing die remove the decapping rod and run the brass through it and see if it helps. It only squeezes the case web area. My RCBS 45acp resizing die will work with 308 family brass but not 30-06 length brass so I had a Hornady 45acp resizing die top bored out and it works great. I also use a 38/357 mag resizing die for my 223 range brass. Last week I was FL resizing some 243 brass that had been fired in one of my rifles and I wanted to load it for another one. It wouldn't chamber so I ran it through my Hornady FL die and all is good. The first die is a Lyman All American die set that was given to me. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Not a bad idea. If it is the OD that is the problem. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I guess I've lived a good life because I've never had to go to these extremes to get used brass to chamber. And I'm curious as to exactly what is meant by "won't chamber". I've had used brass (boughten and range pick-up) that even after it was F/L resized, it took a little determination to bring the round into battery. But after that one firing it was fire formed to my chamber and things went smoothly. One assumes that the cartridge is properly made and of the correct specs. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| One of Us |
Bolt resists closing and I don't force it. | |||
|
| One of Us |
Why don't you take a single piece of brass and "force" it into battery and see if that doesn't do quite a bit to resizing it to your chamber. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
Moderator |
If you want to pay shipping I have a small base 243 die you can borrow, but as mentioned already I'd grind a little off the shellholder first. You also might want to color a case with a magic marker and chamber that to see where it is binding. If the marker is all scraped off the base then yes, you could use a small base die but if it is binding at the shoulder because the chamber on your gun is cut to minimum then you'll need a thinner shellholder and not a smaller base. for every hour in front of the computer you should have 3 hours outside | |||
|
| One of Us |
Because I don't want to risk galling the bolt lugs for very little reward. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I appreciate the offer, another example of the trust and generosity of the shooting community. I don't really need to solve this problem since it is a hunting rifle and I don't foresee shooting it very much. This is mainly an exercise to understand the problem and learn more about the sizing process. I've decided for this rifle the simple solution is to shoot brass fired from new reloaded from it's chamber only. For the small amount of firing I plan to do, I don't plan on investing in any more dies for this rifle. I appreciate all the helpful responses and how the process made me come to the simple solution based on how much I'll shoot this rifle. I'd like to shoot any brass I have in it, but I'd also like to date Ariana Grande. You can't always get what you want. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I seriously doubt that chambering a piece of reluctant BRASS is gonna gall a STEEL locking lug but to each his own. Aim for the exit hole | |||
|
| one of us |
Follow Saeeds advise, don't shorten the die, file down the shell holder..Shell holders are much cheaper than a resizing die.. Ive had to do this on occasions with a almost bench rest tight chambers. Your rifle has a short chamber. If its the shoulder or the base, the filed down shell holder will allow more entrance to the die body and reduce both the shoulder and the base if it needs it...you are pushing the whole case into the die... Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
Ray - You are a fixture here and a wealth of knowledge. I'm honored to have you're response. Thanks. Tim | |||
|
| One of Us |
Tim you went from your original post to your last with a complete change of heart. Several of us here have offered you our experience on how to solve a simple problem, five minutes stoning down a cheap shell holder will almost certainly fix it and you can then use any brass you want. Your choice of course but why bother seeking advice and then just fob it off as if it was worthless anyway. You will learn more about the sizing process if you try this little trick for yourself. | |||
|
| One of Us |
The knowledge gained by this effort will apply to other rifles. The wisdom gained applies to this rifle. The practical solution for a rifle that won't be shot much is the simple one, use the new brass I already have. Part of the reason for this conclusion is that while I at first considered the RCBS FL die improperly dimensioned for my rifle, I now consider it nearly perfect for my rifle. Some spend substantial money to get a custom die matching their rifle's chamber, or have them made from a portion of the barrel when it installed. I'm accepting my good fortune and riding off into the sunset. A died that does minimal and just enough sizing works the brass less, and leaves brass that fills the chamber. Brass life should be long and accuracy good since the brass isn't sloppy in the chamber. I like how it feels to size in a die that does minimal sizing, smooth with light effort. | |||
|
| one of us |
No. RCBS has never charged me for doing this. Have gun- Will travel The value of a trophy is computed directly in terms of personal investment in its acquisition. Robert Ruark | |||
|
one of us |
Just since I didn't see any mention of it, are you sure the die you have is a full length die and not a neck die? ------------------------------------ The trouble with the Internet is that it's replacing masturbation as a leisure activity. ~Patrick Murray "Why shouldn`t truth be stranger then fiction? Fiction after all has to make sense." (Samual Clemens) "Saepe errans, numquam dubitans --Frequently in error, never in doubt". | |||
|
| one of us |
LP, thanks for the good words..appreciate that. Ray Atkinson Atkinson Hunting Adventures 10 Ward Lane, Filer, Idaho, 83328 208-731-4120 rayatkinsonhunting@gmail.com | |||
|
| One of Us |
LP, acknowledge what you say is correct, you obviously have a die that is very close in tolerance to your rifle chamber which is a good quality to have. Other solutions to tight cases such as replacing the die with a new or different brand is not a guarantee of success, and I would not wish to start grinding the face off the die itself. The practice of sanding or stoning down the top face of a shell holder to allow a case to enter the die a fraction of an inch further, retains the advantage of not changing, altering or damaging an otherwise good FL die, as you have, that minimally sizes cases that have been fired in the rifle. Once any tight cases are sized with an 'altered' shell holder the die is just backed off slightly to the point where cases fired in the rifle chamber are only sized that same minimal amount as before i.e. you now have the ability to size any brass to fit your rifle's chamber without losing the close tolerance quality of your sizing die. Possibly in some cases just changing shell holders to another brand could achieve the same thing as there will be variation of tolerance in shell holders just as there are in dies. BTW somewhere in the back of my mind I recall that the 243Win is one of a few cartridge cases that cannot be successfully partially resized (neck only) in a FL die. | |||
|
| One of Us |
I measured the critical dimension of several shellholders and they were essentially the same. | |||
|
| Powered by Social Strata | Page 1 2 |
 | Please Wait. Your request is being processed... |
|
The Accurate Reloading Forums THE ACCURATE RELOADING.COM FORUMS Guns, Politics, Gunsmithing & Reloading Reloading Resized brass won't chamber 243 Win
Visit our on-line store for AR Memorabilia