I got a new set of Hornady loading dies for the 7mm WSM. I checked the bullet runout on a RCBS casemaster and it's .005"! The seating die has a floating sleave that holds the neck of the case and this sleave moves freely up and down inside of the die. The body of the seating die does not even come to within 1/2" of the shell holder when the die is set just close to but not crimping. Above the sleeve is a floating pin that has no guidence at at all. This is the pin that pushes on the bullet and is ajusted by a flat faced screw. There is no alignment of this screw at all and it can move 1/8" or more side to side.

What's the purpose of this design? It seems to be to allow the bullet to go wherever it wants!

To check on what I have been loading for all these years I got out the .300 H&H reloads that I had just made. These were all FL sized in conventional RCBS dies and seated with its seating die. This RCBS seating die holds the base of the case within about .002"/.003". The seating stem is held firm by the body of the die and by it's threads. This is not a perfect fit but it's not sloppy either. It's held tight by the locking nut. These are ordinary dies and of new manufacure. The runout on the bullets with ammo made on these dies is less than .001"!

I got the Hornady dies which are a new brand to me as they were the only ones that my supplier had and it's a rush to get the ammo going. Or so it seemed at the time. The Hornady FL die is of excellent design and mfg and turned new cases that had neck runout of .005" (but you know how bad they always are) and after sizing they run out less than .002"

I have no other dies to use to seat these 7mm WSM's as the body is so large. My .378 seating die is too long.

It seems that I have to buy a new seating die.

Don,
The Hornady seater is a system that is inexpensive to manufacture but could still work out ok except for some flaws induced by the design and execution.
The floating sleeve that supports the neck of the case would be fine if it actually fit the case neck or if it extended at least part way down the body of the case. The seating stem is actually a pretty good fit in the throat of the sleeve and the throat is not a bad fit for the bullet. The flat adjusting screw that bears against the seating punch is actually a good system as it is the throat of the sleeve which aligns the punch. In a die of this type the sleeve and punch are actually the seating die while the body is nothing but a holder. So the misalignment problem comes from the fact that the sleeve does not fit the case and does very little as far as alignment is concerned.
As I said the design is primarily made to be inexpensive. Many of theparts are interchangable between different cartridges of the same caliber. There is no difference whatsoever between the Hornady seaters in my sets for the 260 Rem and the 6.5x55 for instance. Or there wasn't.
Now the 6.5x55 features a sleeve which is cut with the chambering reamer and which fits the brass perfectly. The seating punch fits better into the new sleeve which has a tighter throat. Runout with this die is very good at .001 or less if the brass is good. The die body on this only screws into the press by about four threads but it works ok.
The conventional RCBS design works well if all the threads are well aligned but they are not always so. With the RCBS die the chamber portion and the throat portion are usually quite concentric. The threads that hold the seating stem bushing can be off a bit and the threads on the bushing itself (inside and outside) may not align perfectly with one another. The threads on the seating stem may not align with the recess in the stem. Nonetheless the conventional die usually does a pretty good job and when everything is right they can be exceptional.
In the end I don't mind the Hornady die because from it I can make a pretty good die but as it comes it is indeed a cheap die and frequently performs that way. By the way I use the 260 die to seat bullets for the 6.5x55 hunting rifle and it works ok for this purpose. The brass for the hunter with unturned necks won't fit the modified die.
Another thing that can improve the performance of the Hornady die is to have a spring above the sleeve. This puts pressure on the case and helps to center it in the sleeve. I wouldn't be surprised tolearn that the sleeves were the same for the 7mm Rem mag as for the WSM as well as a number of other cartridges. Regards, Bill.

A few years ago I bought a set of new Hornady dies and they scarred the case on sizing and butchered the mouth on seating the bullet.

Since I got these at a gunshow (They were new) I had no choice but to write Hornady. After an exchange of heated letters where they basically told me I was just stupid and didn't know how to reload....and if I expected them to do anything I could send them back.

I finally sent the dies back to Hornady. A couple of weeks later I got a letter from Steve Hornady admitting the dies were made faulty and here was a new set.

The new ones work OK, but there is just something about them that I don't much like...or maybe it's just the whole affair left a bad taste in my mouth.

I just buy Redding now.

FWIW:

I ordered a set of Hornady customs dies when my 338-08 was finished thisspring, because they had the shortest turnaround on these dies. They are the worst I've ever had at scratching and sticking cases. I've polished them several times now and the scratching is better, but they are the only dies where I've HAD TO USE imperial sizing wax to keep from sticking cases. It doesn't seem like you should have to use imperial on a 308 based cartridge. Also the sleeve sticks badly despite repeated degreasings of the entire seating die body.

BTW, the unbreakable decapping pin....isn't

JimF

I've had great luck with hornady dies. I have some for 45-70, 270 wby, 7-30 waters and 30-30.
None have scratched cases. ALL have the nicest expander ball in the industry (that passes through the case mouth with little resistance due to eliptical design). Only the 270 wby and 7-30 waters use spitzer bullets and they load both with excellent runnout. AS A MATTER OF FACT they load that 270 wby to the same degree of straightness as my foresters do on my 300 wby and I use turned necks in that gun.
I WOULD WITHOUT HESITATION buy more hornady dies for the price BUT I DO ADMIT THAT THE SEATING SLEEVE FEELS A LITTLE ROUGH. All I can say is my experience has been excellent but I do not doubt your experiences either.

ps--re the runnout of the bullets originally posted ...what is the runnout after sizing the case.? Maybe the decapping stem needs to be centered better in the sizing die--make small 1/25 turns of the sizing stem until you find the "sweet spot" and make perfect runnout after sizing. I have to do this to all dies to get virtually no runnout. (I have never seen a die that comes from the factory where if you take off the lock ring and roll it accross a table you won't see the decapping pin kinda "wobble")
Also be sure the chamfering of the case mouth is very smooth.

Thanks for your responses.

Kraky,

I appreciate your comprehensive reply. Since I only have this one set of new Hornady dies I can't say what others are like but these produce seated bullets that are have far more runout than the RCBS dies that I have.

It makes no sense to me to push down on a bullet to seat it and not to control it's alignment! As you say the Hornady system may be cheaper to make but there are more parts than the RCBS and since I know something about manufacturning and turret lathes I surmise that the RCBS system would indeed cost less to make a RCBS type at the same tolerance levels. Todays cost at the same supplier is within a dollar of each other.

Now I found that my supplier (Grafs) has RCBS, Redding and maybe other dies in 7mm WSM. So last night I ordered a three die set of Reddings and I am going to call Grafs Monday to set up a return. If they won't take the Hornady's back I will keep them without much argument as the FL die seems to be excellent and in particular the expanding button as you pointed out. I am thinking of making a sleeve to press into the Hornady seating die to support the bottom of the case. If I throw out the sleeve and floating seating stem of a Hornady die I can get the die to come down to the shell holder and then modify the adjusting screw so that it becomes the seating punch also.

I am going to put the loaded ammo back on the runout gage and mark each bullet with a magic marker at the same node.

The Lee neck crimp dies come with a seater that supports the bullet from wandering around side to side. The punch above can float. I can see that working but not the Hornady system.

I have had fine results loading conventional bullets in the Hornaday dies in 375 H&H. I have just started loading some 249 gr cast plinkers and am puzzled. The floating sleeve seems to seat the bullet, while the screw adjustable seater on top is not engaging the bullet as far as I can tell. About 10% of the lead bullets got stuck in the floating sleeve, pulling out the bullet to the top most lube groove. Any thoughts or hints on handling this problem? Thanks, Bob

Don--just curious what your runnout was at the case mouth AFTER resizing the case?? Also a trick when seating bullets to help with runnout is to just get them started in the case mouth, turn them about 1/2 turn and seat a little, turn another 1/2 turn and seat a little more. What you are doing is working the bullet into alignment as you seat-not just pushing in one stroke perhaps at an angle. (This trick I learned from a David Tubb accuracy video.) For what its worth I have only one set of redding dies. They are for a .340 wby and I cannot get runnout consistantly below .003" no matter what tricks I try. Go figure--EVERYONE ELSE with Reddings worship them. Sometimes cadilacs have flaws and chevy's don't--sometimes it's just a flip of the coin for your luck??

BOB--I have no advice except maybe to call Hornady. (I don't know much about cast bullet loading.)
Jeez, I feel like I'm the only one sticking up for them but I've had good luck with almost all their products--BUT sometime they seem to remind me of some of the Lee products--they are inexpensive and FEEL that way too.

The runout at the outside center of the case necks after FL sizing the new unprimed brass runs about .002" total. Your suggestion from the David Tubbs video sounds useful. I make a good effort at chamfering the case necks. First I use a Foster tool that must be about 30 degrees and then I use a 15 degree tool to finish the neck off.

I mispoke that the Hornady die does not support the bullet. That it does. What it fails to do is to align the case at it's base. The case can be anywhere up to 1/8" off center and the floating neck holder is so sloppy that it tips inside of the die and it's fit to the case neck is way to loose also.

So I called Graf this morning and they listened to my tale of woe and like a good supplier they will take the dies back. I would have ordered RCBS but I could not find a three die set in Grafs site.

I think that the Hornady dies are made well but the seater die is a poor design that attempts to seat all cartridges of the same caliber with one die.

Don, Throwing away the sleeve and stem would be the wrong thing to do. The seating stem as it is is a better system than a threaded stem. It is aligned. So is the bullet. What is not is the case because the neck portion of the sleeve is way too oversized to center the neck. If the sleeve fit well the sleeve and seating punch would work much like a wilson type seater. The body of the die and the flat bottomed stem act as the arbor press. To me the ideal set up would use the Bonanza type sleeve or chamber and the Hornady type seating punch. I have made dies like this and they work real well. We are in agreement though that the Hornady seater, as it comes, sucks! Regards, Bill.

Here's a true story you might think is BS. I have a friend who was lucky enough to afford a sheep hunt in Mexico (can you say huge dollars?!)
He has a lightweight custom .270 wby by rifles inc. For some reason it loves 150 grain hornady I locks. On top of the gun he has a leopold custom reticle scope that has additional dots out to 550 yds for long range shooting. He is on the 3rd day of the hunt and is just about dead on his feet hunting high alititude in 90 degree weather.
They come around a mountain side and spot sheep accross the canyon. The guide lasers the shot and calls it at 670 yds. My friend asks to shoot the main ram and the guide tries to talk him out of that long of a shot. My friend tells him he's just about "DEAD" and asks again. The guide says OK and sets up the spotting scope to watch where the bullets hit. There is no wind and a nice big rock to set up on. My friend dials in the 550 yd dot and takes his best guess for hold over based on the distance of the other dots on the upright. He squeezes one shot off and the ram falls over like it's hit by lightning. My friend asks the guide if he might have hit it in the head causing hide/horn damage. The guide says "no I saw it in the spotting scope--you hit about 2-3" behind the shoulder. That night at camp one of the packers approaches my friend and says in broken english "senior, would it be asking to much if I could have one of your MAGIC BULLETS?" So, somewhere in Mexico someone is carrying around a $.15 cent hornady loaded by hornady dies that he thinks is a "MAGIG BULLET".
End of story--to date my biggest claim to fame in reloading. Don Kraky

bobc:
I had the same problem with .38 Specials. Jacketed bullets are OK, but home cast SWCs (Lyman 357446) hang up on the sleeve. I'm sizing them to .358", but not pushing them all the way into the die, so the top band is .359-.360". The end result was deep seated bullets, as none got pulled back out of the case.

I'd bought the Hornady dies for the TiN sizer, since my old pre-carbide RCBS sizer was worn out by nickle cases, and the Hornady set doesn't cost much more than a new RCBS carbide sizer alone. So I just went back to using the RCBS seater.

Down sizing your bullets usually isn't the best idea, so I'd try honing out the sleeve. Could be tricky.

BTW, I'm not impressed by the Hornady expander in the pistol sets. The Lyman M-die stays.

Bye
Jack

[ 08-27-2002, 23:14: Message edited by: JackM ]