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| one of us |
I am having fits over resizing for my .375 H&H. These are all Remington cases, bought new and now fired twice in my Interarms Whitworth Express. Cases have all been sorted for even neck thickness. When the case comes out of the chamber, it is absolutely straight. Then it meets my reloading equipment: Redding Big Boss press, Redding FL sizing die, Redding shellholders (regular or competition). First, cases are tumbled clean. Then, I brush the necks well with a little RCBS Case Lube 2 on the brush. I lube the outside with Imperial Sizing Die Wax. I adjust the die to touch the shellholder -- usually the +.002" holder from the competition set--the biggest that will allow cases to be sized minimally yet allow consistent chambering. (I've also tried the regular #6 and it makes no difference in the runout issue.) Run the ram up and down, pull out the case and check it on the Casemaster. Some come out fine (less than .002" runout), others come out horrible (.006" or more), some in between. So far I have tried the following: * More neck brushing/lubing. * Sizing without expander ball -- cases come out straight. * Checking decapper & stem for runout & gently bending to straighten. * Buying another die set & swapping all parts around. * Buying another decapper/expander assembly & swapping parts around. * Loosening the die to let it "float" during neck expanding operation. * Using a rubber O-ring under the lockring to let the die float just a little. * Lightly polishing the expander ball. * Chucking the expander stem in an electric drill and using a file to round its top "shoulder" a bit -- thought that might ease its passage through the neck. * Probably some other stuff I can't remember right now. Any suggestions before I start looking up the mental health benefits in my health plan? | ||
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one of us |
Sir: Reccommend you decap with a separate die, size without a decap stem, neck expand separately. Good luck. ned | |||
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one of us |
Do you have any tools to measure thickness of brass tubing? Neck wall thickness in Remington (and not just remington) can be erratic. When you size the inside of the neck round,and the case wall at neck is not of consistent thickness you will get runout even though everything is set up right. The expander ball is the last thing to size the case and it creates this condition. This is the reason some people neck turn and ream. Or you can just buy Lapua brass. [ 11-13-2003, 08:12: Message edited by: covey16 ] | |||
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quote:Wow -- quick reply -- thanks! Unfortunately, I tried it already and it didn't help. Sometimes came out OK, usually didn't -- just like everything else. | |||
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| <tula9130> |
Why not try the Lee Collet die system.No lube necessary either.Easy.If you crimp, get the Factory Crimp Die to go with it.I don`t think there is an easier system if you follow the directions.I prefer to use the crimp die even if the bullet don`t have a cannelure for consistent start pressure.Great results in 7x57,30-06,243,222,223,270,22-250.Best results are from a single stage non breakover type press,but I have used a Lyman breakover turret type with very good results also.Long case life also as the case don`t stretch much.Some cases are on the tenth loading with less than .003" growth on average.Just my $.02 opinion. | ||
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| one of us |
Once the brass has seen the expander ball, resizing without the expander ball will not fix it. | |||
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| one of us |
covey16 -- I sorted all the cases for neck thickness earlier. Clark -- I hear what you're saying but don't think it's an issue here -- I get erratic results starting with brass that's just been fired and is straight. tula -- Thanks for the suggestion on the collet die. However, since this is a hunting rifle for large and/or dangerous animals, I prefer full-length sizing. Savage 99 -- Since you asked, I went up there and did another one just for you. Measuring the outside diameter at the case mouth: Fired case: 0.403" Sized case without expander: 0.388" After neck expansion: 0.395" | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
A fired case of .403" and then sized to .388" seems like quite a spread. I don't have the time to get my stuff out right now. Maybe someone will do it first? I did mic. some fired necks and from an old M 70 Superspeed brass is .404" and with Super X from a Douglas chambered .375 Improved it's .403" [ 11-13-2003, 16:27: Message edited by: Savage 99 ] | ||
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| <reload> |
The 375 isn't a target caliber, what size groups are you getting with no runout and what size groups are you getting with some runout.? If you shoot the bullets touching the lands it should correct some of your accuacy problem because then the bullet will be lined up in the center of the bore. Mine liked 270 grain bullets better then others. Good Luck | ||
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quote:Your dies are working the brass in the normal manner, sizing down much more then needed. The expander has to open the brass back up. Not good for accuracy. This can be corrected by having custom dies made, (RCBS, REDDING) I think they both still do it??? You send 3 fired cases to them and they adjust the fl die to not work the brass as much.In OTHER calibers the Redding full lenght sizing type-s bushing die is the way to go. You then have a choice of using the expander or not and the bushing controls how much u work the brass. It is not made in 375 h&h in my redding book. WHAT DOES THE NECK OF A LOADED ROUND MEASURE? | |||
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| one of us |
Hey John, Perhaps you should try "Annealing" a few of the worst offenders and resize them without the Expander(as you mentioned doing) just to see if you can get them back where you want them. Also agree with covey16s suggestion about trying another (or a few) brand(s) of cases. Maybe this set you are working with is the real problem. ... What kind of groups are you getting with the Cases which don't have Run-Out vs. the ones with Run-Out? Is the group size difference enough to be a serious concern on what you will be Hunting with the 375H&H? | |||
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What is the neck diameter with a seated bullet? Agree totally with 243alphabet. Sizing down .015" is way to much working of the brass. With the different rate of strectch after working it, it's almost impossible to get straight necks. .011"-.012" is maximum working, and less is better. As noted, the die manufacturer will polish out the neck to increase it's size, probably to about a .393" diameter, or a bit more and that should go a long way to cure the problem. I've had all of them at one time or another polish out necks. They used to do it free and probably still do. | |||
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quote:This rifle does seem sensitive to runout. With 235-gr. Speers -- in straight cases with virtually no bullet runout (I know that's different but neck runout does contribute) I get 1/2 MOA groups. With 225 Hornadys -- which don't seem to seat as straight regardless of neck runout -- I get 2" plus. Even with the 235 Speers I get big differences switching from new brass to once-fired. It's impossible to seat bullets touching the lands in this rifle -- the Yugoslavians used a very long throat. Maybe that's why runout matters. So far I like the overworked brass theory. Think I'll send the dies and some fired cases to Redding and see what they say. | |||
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| <Savage 99> |
John, You think you have a problem! I just dug my .375 HH dies out and they are Herters! This rifle is a safe queen and only gets shot with factory ammo anyway of which I have a lot but that's another story. The runout from these Herters dies is far worse than yours and I don't think they will answer my call! Like Bob 338 wrote the amount of sizing is excessive. These dies here size the neck down to .387" w/o the button and that has to be the problem. You could polish out the ID of the necks with that steel wool on a brush idea that Hot Core has and then lube them up good with an EP grease. That may reduce the runout due to less friction and get you thru the season. After that just call and send them back. It seems that your rifle chamber is normal. However I have not looked at the chamber drawing at this point. | ||
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quote:Chamber drawing showed my cases as normal. I've sent a message to Redding and will see what they say. Too bad they don't make that FL bushing die in .375 H&H, that would be the hot ticket for this. I should be able to get through the Virginia and Maryland deer seasons with the other 4 or 5 rifles that are ready to go. But it will be a struggle .... | |||
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| one of us |
There's a gunsmith in Indiana, J. L. Carsten, who converts many dies to the bushing dies. The question will be if you can buy bushings that large. I know Redding doesn't run that large but possibly Wilson does. Carsten charges $30 plus shipping. You might call Wilson and see if they either have or will make bushings that large. The biggest one I've seen is a .365 for 338 caliber. | |||
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| one of us |
OR--buy a set of Hornady new dimension dies. Get the spindle set right in the middle of the die (takes about 1 hour of repetitive fiddling) then commence to make 80-90% of you ammo at under .003". You can laugh at my claim but I have sets in .308, 270 wby, 4570, 223 and the results are all the same--not a set gives me problems. PS--I also own foresters, rcbs, redding, lee. With the exception of the lee collet die NOTHING PERFORMS BETTER than the Hornadies. | |||
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quote:No laughter but I have Redding dies in .30-06, .338 Win. Mag., 7mm-08, .270 Win., .280 Rem. and .30-30 Win. and all of them easily do .002" runout or less. Only one that's ever barely over is the .300 Sav. and at least that one's consistent, unlike this .375 set. Lack of consistency is one of the most puzzling aspects here. | |||
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How much difference in group size do you see with the high runout rounds? | |||
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one of us |
With that much movement in the necks, I'd say you are a good candidate for annealing, as well as the collet die. Lee will make a custom collet die, if need be, for about $50. HTH, Dutch. | |||
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| <George Capriola> |
John, I think your problem is stated in your second sentence... You're using Remington brass! I went through the same sort of thing, and tired everything you've tried, and others suggested. This was with .308 brass... Then, I checked some other reloads, this time Winchester cases, by chance. The Winchester cartridges all had runout of less than .004", and were assembled with RCBS "regular" dies. I had even bought "competition" dies to try to solve the concentricity problem. Just to experiment, I went through all of the .308 cases I had to still be reloaded, and picked out 10 each of Remington and Winchester at random. After sizing and reloading these cases, all the Winchester cartridges had less than .004" runout, and the Remington cases had as much as .010" runout. None of the Remingtons measured less than .003"! I solved the problem by giving all my Remington brass to a nephew who reloads, and replacing all of it with Winchester brass. My only problem now is finding someone other than Remington who makes .17 Remington brass! Regards, George. | ||
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I found this thread quite interesting as all responders but one tried to fix a problem without knowing it is a problem. The only thing that counts is how far apart the bullet holes are on the target. The 375 H&H is a hardkicking round and most folks don't shoot it all that well off a bench and the Mark X is not a super premium rifle. If you loads are turning in 1.5 MOA then take a good stiff drink and try and not worry about it. | |||
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| one of us |
Bullet run out: I tryed it all, short of buying 20 or so benchrest reloading dies for all my gun's If I do the best I can; neck turning,separate neck expanding turning the case several times etc.etc. I stil get atleast 25% more than 4th run out. So I made a jig ,this thing supports the case neck at the bottom and the cartridge head at the top,I insert the cartridge in this devise and tap the bullet with a plastic hammer (lightly)you will soon get the feel of it as to how hard to hit it. If the runout is not more than 5or 6 th the cartridge can be staightened out to 0 or 1 th without the neck tention suffering. Works for me regards martin | |||
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| one of us |
CHARGER has a great point--all this means nothing if there isn't an accuracy problem. Over at "long range hunting" a guy buys a $200 handi rifle and puts a 10xscope on it and posts his .35"-.85" groups. Some with reloads and some with Walmart cheapo ammo. Gosh guys, that trip down the barrel is 95% of the accuracy. I had fun making a post over there at that site kidding him that there's no way it could have happened without "weighing the brass", "weighing each bullet", having runnout at .001" etc etc. We get so crazy about having the cartridge insanely consistant that we forget it takes a "gazilion psi trip" down a spiraled tube and that's where the accuracy gremlins live. "shakey tube"--no accuracy for you!!!!!!!!!!!! "Smooth tube" you smile!!! | |||
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| one of us |
Guys, Responding to two issues on this thread: 1. "It's the brass". I doubt it. I've been sizing and prepping this brass exactly the same way I do for several other cartridges for which I have large quantities of Remington brass. I have NOT had the same problem with the other cartridges. And to repeat once again, I sort ALL my cases for thickness at the neck, the main thing that normally causes runout. 2. "It doesn't matter unless there's an accuracy problem." As I've already stated, I do see bigger accuracy effects from runout with this rifle than with others, either from new vs. fired brass (new brass being straighter) or from bullets that don't seat as straight. I'm not shooting for any particular number, I'd just like my loads to be consistent, right now they're not, and I think I have good enough reason to believe that runout is a factor. | |||
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| one of us |
quote:"from bullets that dont seat straight"<<>> Is the bullet fitting the seating stem correctly? When seating the bullet, have the case just kissing the crimper in the die. This may keep the neck from moving left or right a few .001s" and seat the bullet straighter. | |||
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| one of us |
John, You mention that when sized without the expander ball that the cases come out straight so that is good. An inexpensive test for you is to try is Lyman's Rifle Neck Expanding M Die 37 for 375 H&H Magnum & 38-55 Win for $13.25. Because of the way the die expands the neck I don't even deburr the inside of the necks any more because the step sizing leaves a rounded edge for the bullet to ride past. As stated on the Lyman site: "The Two-Step Neck-Expanding (M) Die Improves accuracy of cast and jacketed bullet reloads. Doesn�t stretch cases as does standard expander button. Extends case life. Many reloaders consider Lyman�s Neck Expanding (M) Die a valuable tool for improving the accuracy of their reloads. The die�s expander plug has two steps. (See illustration) 1) The first step expands the inside of the case neck to just under bullet diameter for precise case neck tension in the finished reload. (See Illus. A.) 2) The second step expands the case mouth to bullet diameter or slightly over. This allows the jacketed or cast bullet to be started perfectly centered in the case mouth and properly aligned with the axis of the case neck. (See Illus. B.) NOTE: By adjusting the neck expanding plug slightly deeper, Step 2 also provides a slight flaring of the case mouth for reloaders using cast bullets. (See Illus. C.)" I saw an improvement in smaller runout numbers in my reloads. After the bullet is seated follow up with taper or roll crimper depending on your application. The only other option is a more expensive carbide sizer button which will reduce the friction as it is pulled from the case and hopefully less run out. I think the Lyman expander would also work better because it expands during insertion (compressing the brass) instead of extraction (stretching the brass). What have you got to loose besides your sanity ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon} ?If you can't find the dies locally you can order them through the Lyman site at: http://www.lymanproducts.com/ [ 11-15-2003, 00:28: Message edited by: Byron ] | |||
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