I have heard that to anneal brass you put it in a pan of water and heat with propane torch till it glows dull red..... but then what ???
Do you let it cool or tip them over in the water or what?
Thanks Guys

SS - here are the basics and methods...

If you are only reloading factory brass 3 or 4 times, annealing is not necessary. However, if you would like to extend the life of your brass then annealing is necessary to avoid split necks. For those of us who shoot wildcat cartridges, you either have invested many hours forming brass or lots of money on expensive proprietary brass. Either way, annealing saves a lot of time and expense.

There is no mystery or magic to annealing. It is not difficult or very time consuming. The benefits are easy to see and annealing does improve bullet release and accuracy - both proven facts.

To properly anneal brass you must raise the temperature of the brass to at least 670 degrees Fahrenheit. Use a propane torch to heat quickly - you do not want the heat to migrate down the case. If this happens, it can soften the case base and web area - something you want to avoid. Some folks recommend that you use a temp stick (like a crayon) or a temp paint to judge the proper temperature. Both are available at your local welding supply house. The paint is easier to apply. While these can help in getting started with annealing, they are not necessary as long as you are not color blind.

I anneal in a low lit room. This makes it easier to judge the color temperature of the brass. As you heat the brass in a flame you will see it take on a shine and then a blue wash color. This is caused by the brass re-crystalizing. Soon thereafter the brass begins to glow a deep, dark red. This is as hot as you want to get the brass. IF the brass turns brighter cherry red, you have over-heated the brass and this can make it too soft to seat bullets or to obtain much neck tension.

There are two tricks to annealing - heat quick and cool quick. This ensures that the heat will not run down the case body. To do this properly use a very hot flame and a tub of water. Rotate the neck of the case in the blue tip of the propane flame until you see the blue wash and the deep red glow, then toss it in the water. For large cases you can hold the base of the brass with your fingers. For smaller cases you should use gloves.

There is a lot of data on annealing and its benefits. A-Square tested the annealing process and the improvements gained in accuracy, chamber pressure, and velocity SD. You can find this information in their book - Any Shot You Want. The best way to get started is to practice and experiment on old brass. Over heat a few cases and then use plyers to crush the neck. You will quickly see a noticeable difference in neck strength and you will find that it is possible to get it too hot.

In no time you will become a Zen Master at annealing. There is nothing to it.

[ 02-22-2003, 18:52: Message edited by: Zero Drift ]

Either way, but do NOT let the heat go down into the case head area.

Is this a one case at a time job, and could you use a heat sink around a case to keep the heat in the neck and shoulder area? One more question could you use an air/acetylene torch with a small tip to anneal?

Rem. 222

[ 02-22-2003, 19:26: Message edited by: Rem. 222 ]

Agree with Zero Drift, except for perception of the color of the brass when heating it. I usually start with polished brass and my visual key is a dulling of the shine under the flame. You can also see the blue ring travel down the neck as it gets hot. I hold my brass in my fingers and drop it into a bucket of cold water. You can't hold the brass long enough in your fingers to overheat it as you will drop it when the base of the case reaches 130�-140� F.

Rem - One case at a time. Use propane only. The idea is to heat, not melt.

It takes less than 30 seconds to pick up a case, rotate it in the flame to the desired temperature, and then drop it in a bucket. You can finish 50 cases in no time.

ZeroDrift,
I don't think an air/acetylene torch with a #1 tip would melt it, might just heat it faster. What about the heat sink to keep your fingers from anealing?

Rem. 222

Todd Kindler, the sub-bore guy makes and markets a head for propane torches that does a great job annealing brass....and I think Hornady has just put out a new kit.

It takes a lot of experience (ie ruined brass) to learn to judge by color....just the temep sticks and get it right the first time.

Rem 222~
I tried it a number of times with oxy-acetylene. Way too hot too quick. If you do decide to try it, use old brass. You'll burn them for sure. I've found that reducing the cone of the propane torch to about 3/4" is light enough to heat well yet not so hot as to force you to turn loose of the case too quickly.

As to judging color, take five pieces of old brass and try annealing them. By the sixth you'll be an expert. Listen to what ZD says. He's got it right.

Bob338,
Definitely not oxy/acet. The reason I wanted to know about air/acet is that is what I have. The only propane torch I have is a Turbo Torch. You have to keep these babies cranked up or you will burn the tip up.
I know when I have to anneal copper tube you let it cool normally. Is it important to cool brass quickly?

Rem. 222

I highly doubt your statement for annealing copper. Ferrous metals anneal by slow cooling and harden by rapid quenching. Non-ferrous metal ALL anneal with rapid cooling, which would include copper. They are the reverse of the ferrous metals. I know there is an effect with heating and cooling slowly but it certainly is not proper annealing for copper or brass.

In a past discussion here, and on another board, someone posted a couple of websites on the subject. One particularly covered the process thoroughly, including temperatures for the recrystalization process and the effect on various types of brass, not only our 70-30 for cartridge cases. I know Zero Drift was involved in all those debates for several years and he may have the link handy. If not, a search on the internet will bring it up.

Bob - I am at a loss on the web site(s). The topic has been well discussed on HA and 24HCampfire. A search might turn up the sites. I need to give credit where due. I perfected my technique from information that Ken Howell and ASquare provided. My information is a bastardization of these primary sources and a lot of annealing practice.

There has been a continual debate if "annealing" is the proper terminology for re-crystalizing work-hardened rifle brass. To a true metallurgist, annealing results in a different process with a different outcome. However, we hand loaders continue to refer to this process as annealing. �Re-crystallization� is probably a more accurate term.

Here's how I do it - being lazy I like to jig things.

Clamp a piece of 1/4" steel rod (1/8" for 0.222" cases) in the vise at about 20 -30 degrees to the horizontal and slip a case onto the end as far as it will go. Place the propane torch on the bench so that the flame surrounds the neck/shoulder area of the cartridge. Now remove that case and let the gas bring the steel rod up to temperature. (Hardly ever gets red but it's not too important).

While all that is happening I fill a bucket of water and place it on a lab stool just under the end of the rod.

OK that's the set up. Now to the annealing bit.

Once the rod is hot I slip on a cartridge and gently spin it and watch the neck/shoulder area. You will see all the colour changes that have been described above. When the temp at the primer end gets just too hot for comfort an almost involuntary twitch of the fingers pulls it off the rod and it falls into the bucket of water with a satisfying shiiisss!

The purpose of the steel rod is to act as a heat sink - this shortens the time to anneal each case quite nicely. It also acts as a jig to keep everything fairly constant relative to the flame.

Certainly if the cases are polished to start with I end up with that bluish collar below the shoulder that you see on RWS cases.

My way of deciding when to anneal is to monitor the neck for soot marks. A newly annealed case will show no soot - by the fourth or fifth shot it is quite clear that the neck is not sealing off the combustion gases and I haul out the torch, bucket etc.

Some ammo that has been on the shelf for 40 -50 years seems to age-harden. I have seen quite a number of first time fired cases come out of the rifle with longitudinal lines burnt through the brass of the neck. Looks as though it was done with a plasma torch - actually that is exactly what did it. Anyway after annealing the survivors, there was no further splitting of the necks.

cheers edi

I'm astounded by two things.

First, I thought you, Zero Drift, knew much more about annealing in those very early discussions we had years ago, particularly in my dispute with Ken Howell, as I thought your view was identical to mine. He strongly opposed my method and espoused the use of a Tempilstik for EXACT temperature. You're also correct on the definition of annealing. It should probably more properly be called "partial annealing" as brass continues to anneal to 1400� at which temperature it is completely annealed and useless for our purposes. It burns shortly thereafter. It doesn't start recrystallizing until approximately 540� and therefore doesn't truly anneal at all below that. There is very little difference in the ductility of the brass annealed at maybe 720� versus, say 670�. Obviously for consistency you want to maintain a constant temperature but it isn't all that significant.

My real education on annealing occurred when I read the article in the 1980 NRA publication of "Handloading", and has evolved with the discussions on the boards.

And my second surprise, I thought I had heard of every method to anneal that there was until edi malinaric posted his. I really like that concept and I'm going to try it. It's a slightly different concept to mine which is to twirl the brass while holding it by the head in your fingers over the bucket into which you drop it. Thanks for the education edi.

[ 02-22-2003, 23:41: Message edited by: Bob338 ]

Bob338,
I don't want to get too far off the topic of annealing brass. Here is what I read in one of my old dusty HVACR text books on annealing old or work hardened copper.

"Anneal the tubing by heating to a dull cherry red or blue color and allow it to cool."

Rem. 222

Now we have different ways to "anneal". This brings up a question I've always been embarrassed to ask. When do you anneal? Before the brass is sized in a die? Between sizing and fireforming (wildcats)? After fireforming?

Does it make a difference to anneal or not depending on one's reloading process? Let me explain that.....I have some (actually quite a few)30-30 cases that were reformed for 7-30 Waters brass. Twenty (20) of these shells are on the 18th reload. I'm neck sizing only, and using less than maximum loads (34.9 grns IMR-4895/ 120 grn bullet). These cases were never annealled. Accuracy/precision is dependable out of the shells, meaning that I can mix reloads w/cases that were not shot as often and have no change in impact location.

An old friend of mine who lets me use his equipment suggested it was time to anneal my cases. They are all factory ammo shells on their 3rd or 4th firing.

Instead of a torch he's going to have my use molten lead. Just dip the case and hold until uncomfortable. Any lead that sticks you can wipe away with a fingernail.

It's a completely foreign idea to me, but it seems to make sense and he's been doing this for decades.

Any opinions on this? Anything to watch out for?

Gentlemen

I spoke to a target shooter at the range today. He annealed his brass over a nornal candlelight. According to him you can't hold the cases long enough to have it annealed to much. He drops them in a bucket of water after annealing them with a candle.

Has anyone tried this method. Good or bad??

/ JOHAN

Rem 222~
Interesting. I've heard the same story about brass. Everything I have read and learned, I've summarized above. I'm not a metallurgist and the ones who wrote your book obviously are. All I know is what I have read on the subject and had heard metallurgists on these boards preach. Early on at Shooters.com about 5 years ago there were a couple of guys went at it hammer and tongs. It was a question of semantics (much like the "annealing" distinctions above,) and the conclusion was as I have stated. I don't believe natural cooling affects the process as much, but some. It affects ductility and elasticity, but I'll leave it to those that really know as to the extent. I'm not going to look it up.

T/C Nimrod~
On regular brass I anneal every 4 or 5 reloads. If you will read the A-Square manual mentioned above, they recommend annealing at 2 reloads. Reason for this is that the neck is the most affected part of the case in firing and sizing. Low or heavy loads don't affect necks very differently. The neck always expands to seal the chamber. In the usual hunting rifle chamber you are lucky if you don't have to work the brass more than about .008". Most cases are worked more than this when using conventional dies with expanders. Particularly so if the expanders aren't polished down to minimize expansion and match the neck of the die and the chamber. The die companies will tell the normal movement is about .011". Many work the brass much more. That stretching at least twice in the sizing and seating process work hardens the brass crystallizing it and making it less ductile. This changes the grip on the bullet. Even using bushing dies in a reasonably tight custom chamber will work the brass minimum .006"-.007".

You can feel the difference in seating bullets as the necks harden. And if you keep good records and save your targets, you can clearly see the differences on them. My accuracy deteriorates after the third reload even using bushing dies in some cases. Immediately after annealing the accuracy improves. On those types of case I anneal before sizing, after depriming and polishing, which is the only time I typically tumble brass. I like to see the shiny neck when I anneal. I then let them dry, trim if necessary, and size, usually by setting the shoulder back .001". I neck size only between annealings.

On wildcats it's just a matter of using your head. Typically I try to anneal after I've performed all the sizing operations and before fireforming. I've collapsed cases in some instances of major forming so I'm content to sacrifice a case or so in trying to neck down a body to form into the neck of the new case, just to learn if the brass will form properly. In some cases when the exterior of the brass is hardened, the brass will fold and ruin your case. In those instances I'll lightly anneal just before that operation. I've even annealed twice during forming. That depends on the quality of the brass. On a 338 Jamison which uses 404 Jeffery brass as the parent, I was forced to use Bell brass initially. It's pure junk. I tried annealing at every step. I never found the best solution with it but I did have to anneal the body of the brass where the new neck was going, and at the same time minimize softening the mouth, which would collapse if too soft. Then to top it off I would split necks on those cases. I don't recall ever getting more than 5 reloads before losing cases on the brass, sometimes just two or three reloads. In contrast I was finally able to acquire RWS brass. The first one I was able to form all the way without annealing. That cartridge requires necking down in two steps, setting the shoulder way back midway on the body of the parent, the reaming he necks for proper thickness. I decided to fire those cases as the ductility of the brass seemed good. I think it was at least 5 reloads before I ever annealed. I still have those cases that have been reloaded 28 times and just now are loosening primer pockets. I've never lost a RWS case in that reforming operation nor have I worn them out yet. The only annealing has been my normal, every 4 0r 5 reloads.

What I'm saying is there is not set rule. It depends on brass quality and the extent of the reforming. Hope this helps.

Bob - Relax. Ken�s book goes into great detail about annealing. There are things that I do not agree with and some that I do. I do in fact remember some heated (sorry) discussions with Ken regarding some of his ideas and absolutes. There are a couple of points in particular that I do agree with Ken on -

1. Heat quick and cool quick
2. If you don�t get it hot enough, you are only wasting your time
3. Use a small flame (vs a wide flame) and only attempt to heat the neck
4. The neck should be heated evenly

Ken was stuck on temp sticks and other ideas that I do not agree on. The heating threshold is not an absolute, but the physical properties that you can see are an absolute. There has been much discussion regarding the threshold temps and from what I have read, 670 F is about the bottom end. Anything over 720 or so will begin to over-soften the brass. Unfortunately, I have never tested the temperature ranges to know for sure, however, I have numerous sources which substantiate this.

I actually tried the temp stick method once but gave up because I could never get them to leave a mark on the brass.

ZD~
We do completely agree, and always have on this subject. I never read Ken's book. I've used both the Tempilstik and the Tempilac and do better with my old tried and true method, as do you. My disagreement with Ken, and my distress, was that he poo-poo'd my method and espoused the need for a very EXACT temperatures, making annealing into some sort of voodoo to be done only by "experts". I know different. He subsequently got a copy of Handloader, which taught me my current method, and said that's what he had been saying all along and he was "validated." If so, we would have agreed from the gitgo.

Regarding the questions about candles, lead pots, etc., they all seem to work to some degree. Lead pots particularly are used by some shooters with great success and probably with a greater degree of consistency than any other method. The only drawbacks are that they don't heat quite as quicly as propane or flame, and they are dangerous if you have any moisture around the case. There are also methods using steel plates, some with holes into which you insert the necks when the plate is cherry red, another with a plate with steel dowels in the neck size to be annealed, both of which go on a stove. The means of heating the neck to the right temperature, quickly and precisely, are limitless.

You do start getting some recrystallization at about 540� but it IS a waste of time. The area between 670� and 700� is pretty well accepted as the ideal. The Tempilstik recommended in the NRA article was 700�. When I have overheated, running the necks several times through an expander die hardens it up nicely and you can go forward as normal.

Hey SS, unless you're doing some radical forming or are trying to set new records for number of reloads, just do the usual: neck size, mildest loads feasible, and all that. I formed some 33 Win from 45-70, and the necks split after a seemingly short time without annealing, so that became an annealing "must-do." I also formed 7x57 from odd & sundry 06 & 8x57 without annealing and without problems. I have excellent results putting the cases in a pan almost to the necks in water, heating them with a propane torch with a spreader tip until they glow dull red, and then tip them over. It negates any possibility of softening the heads, and all the detailed metallurgy notwithstanding, gives excellent results with minimal technical expertise. It ain't rocket science, so I try to just be safe...
HTH
Maj Dad
Shaw AFB SC

Bob338 - Thanks for the info and turning me onto the A-square Manual. Now, what am I doing to get the highly extended case life? Nothing worse than not knowing why something works! As far as accuracy deteriorating over time - I stopped saving my targets because they all looked the same. Same point of impact, same group size (minus the shooter errors). I impinged some of the cases last night to recheck die settings, and found the neck is being formed right to the start of the shoulder - never touching the shoulder. I guess if nothing else I'll wait for the inevitable "mass case failure" Thanks for everyone's thoughts!

Bob338 - you're welcome.

Just an aside - I form cases for my 0.280 Ross from RWS 8x68 cases. (A closer match than using a 375 H&H!) It takes three anneals to get there. Heavy work that -I keep thinking that it might be a lot easier just to have the chamber opened out to accept the 8x68 case and just resize the neck to match the rifle bore.

Then maybe that is how the 6.5x68 and 8x68 were born - someone just blew out a Ross case and went up and down with the calibre.

cheers edi

Thanks Guys
This is the place to get answers
SS

Great place to get answers.

For the gadget inclined, an annealing machine:

http://www.kenlightmfg.com/products.html

For the scientifically inclined, a metallurgist discussion of brass:

http://www.cda.org.uk/megab2/costeff/pub117/sec62.htm

The latter link clearly shows that the proper term for annealing is "re-crystallization", and that 670 F (the Narramore number) is a couple of hundred degrees low for recrystallization. Perhaps what we want to do is not even fully re-crystalize? Over my head, for sure.

FWIW, Dutch.

My two cents as a metallurgist - it is a long standing myth that the brass will reharden if cooled slowly . Cartridge brass ( 70 Cu, 30Zn) cannot be hardened by heat treating therefore quick or slow cool results are the same .With cases of course you only want to anneal the neck, it would be dangerous to anneal the whole case thats why you don't do it in your kitchen oven.Tipping over in water is as good a way as any.

mete, what do you mean by "tipping over in water"? Is it simply allowing the cases to float in the sink, and heating the exposed necks until dark red, while they float?

Justin

I did the glow red in a dim room and dunk method of Varmint Al until I read the book Bob338 alludes to:
"Reloading" William C. Davis and the NRA 1981 which is a compilation book containing an article by William Dresser entitled "case neck annealing". It is a single page that says, ~ 500 F no good, 700 F perfect, glowing 1400 F very bad, use tempilstiks from welding suppliers.~

That is a great book, for the SAAMI drawings of cartridges and chambers, and when ever I see a copy for sale I buy it and give it to someone who I think might read it.

Since reading that book, I have tried to get by without annealing.
So far the 36 calibers I load have been ok.

Without annealing, I have necked 8x57 down to 7x57 and again from 7x57 down to 257 Roberts with Wilson body dies and then fire formed to 257 Roberts Ackley Improved.

Just C , Put them in a pan of water but not so much as to float them , heat them ,then tip over to prevent over heating. - " annealing" is actually two things first stress relieving then at a higher temperature recrystallization. Both are time and temperature dependent. There isn't any thing absolute here as far as the reloader is concerned , you have to play with it a bit to get the results you want.

mete, thanks. I havn't tried annealing yet, so I have printed this thread out as a reference. I like the idea of tipping them, as well as having the water insulate the lower case to prevent overheating of this area, it sounds as though it would be a good way for me to start, and not ruin as much brass.

Don't mean to piss on the fire, but I've been reloadin' for goin' on forty years and haven't annealed (or had the need to) a case yet. Am I missin' something? A very informative post...learn something new every day here.

Thanks Everybody
Wow!! what a lot of info. Had to fire up the printer.I have been reloading for 30 years and have not had to anneal,now cutting off 460 WM cases the necks do not grip the .50 bullets as
well as I hoped, so annealing might do it.
SS

One the most interesting threads I have come across. It's some I have never tried and look forward to. May I throw in the last two cents,
Don't fire up the tourch in the reloading area !
Tacksmacker

The article that Bob338 refers to on annealing brass in the 1981 "Handloader" may not be available on the internet used right now, but the same article by William Dresser shows up in the 1968 "NRA Handloader's Guide" which IS available:
http://search.barnesandnoble.com/OopBooks/oopResultsTitle.asp?userid=52BOS4YPHB&author=NRA&title=Handloaders+guide&rstart=1&WID=39668363

That guide is a partial compilation of "Amercian Rifleman" articles from 1950 to 1967.

How come.... nobody uses a lead bullet casting pot set to 675 degrees to anneal their brass ?

Lots of reloaders use lead pots. Read my post above. Those that I know set theirs at 700�. As with all the methods, there are negatives, plus it's a bit more time consuming than use of a propane torch, with a few more cautions and dangers. It may be the most precise method to anneal, but expensive if you aren't a bullet caster and have to buy the equipment.

For my 350 Rigby, which has a 45 deg shoulder, which has to be set back when forming from 375 h&h brass, annealing is a big benefit. I've annealed other cases as well.

I use a propane torch, and twirl with my fingers, on -06 and 375 cases, you'll be able to amply heat the neck before it gets too hot for the fingers. I think temp sticks et all are a waste of time. If you hold the cases in your fingers, you will be prevented from overheating the case heads, as you will automatically drop the brass when it starts getting hot. A 5 gallon bucket full of water is perfect for dropping them in.

For a short case, you can't use the finger techniques, because you'll burn them. On my 218 mashburn bee, I made a fitting for the propane torch that produced 18 little jets of flame impinging on the neck. I had to stand the brass in a tray with 1/2" water to keep the bases cool, and would knock over each case after heating the necks.