Do you believe one can ruin a barrel with a bronze brush? The brass is so much softer than the steel - how could this be? Yet, Krieger technicians clearly state that brass brushing can ruin a barrel.

Moreover, they state that AMMONIA is very harmful, if allowed to have barrel contact for more than 5 minutes or so; and, that allowing the end of the cleaning rod to pass beyond the muzzle will eventually ruin the crown.

Finally, they say one should never mix cleaning solvents, because erosive chemicals develop and cause serious harm to the barrel. They advise clearing out one solvent before using another.

What do you think?

I don't know. For years I've heard all this and finally worked out my own cleaning routine that I feel I can live with that gets my barrels clean and try not to lose any sleep thinking about it anymore. There are many who say you can ruin your barrel when your brush exits the muzzle and the rod is allowed to fall down onto the crown wearing this area over time. Personally I just don't see how I'm doing any damage with a coated Dewey rod. I just don't know.

I believe one can get too anal about cleaning barrels. I have never hurt a barrel by cleaning with a bronze brush.....at least that I know of.

The folks at Krieger should command an ear when they talk as they're (so called) experts on the subject. maybe they should be more specific as to how much and how often.....seems a little vague to me.

I clean my BR barrels every 7-10 rds. When I retire them it is not because of bronze brushes or ammonia type cleaners. Butch

I'm not sure you can but I've heard it from many. I now have a much easier way using a nylon brush instead. Barrels are cleaner, much easier to clean and the nylon certainly can't harm a barrel. I forget from whom I got the method but it works. Two soaked patches with Kroil to eliminate carbon, sit for 10 minutes or so, the about 25 trips through the bore using Butch's Bore Shine adding some about every 6 trips. Let it sit at least half hour but 2 hours won't hurt, and let the chemicals work. Swab out with dry patches, check with borescope, completely copper free. Total actual work invested? About 10 minutes. Elapsed time maybe 3 hours while you're reloading or doing something else.

A bronze brush would'nt hurt a steel barrel in a thousand years. Improper use of a cleaning rod, whether it be coated or not, will shorten the life of a barrel in a big hurry. You've got to use a bore guide and you've got to be careful of the crown. Jim

GOLDARNIT BOB!!--You got a borescope?? You make me jealous! Pretty hard to argue with a guy that can back up claims/procdures with a borescope!!! Don

The problem with these claims of ruining barrels with brass brushes, cleaning rods, mixing solvent, etc. if that they're all claims - that is, I've never actually met someone who actually ruined a barrel by such means. Also, you guys don't report many such examples either.

If you talk the Krieger people, they emphasize how all these things will ruin barrels with considerable ease - but, maybe they're covering their ass's from "poor product" suits and the like. It would be a convenient excuse for them, "you ruined our barrel with your over aggressive cleaning techniques - you know, that dastardly bronze bush you use, etc." Your thoughts?

I think I remember a Sierra newsletter with a David Tubb article. I can't remember how many strokes per round of shooting he was doing with one of those DASTARDLY BRONZE BRUSHES but I remember it was enough to surprise me!! So, I guess if he uses them they don't degrade things very fast!!!

I shoot Handgun Silhouette and put about 10,000 rounds a year down range. I clean every gun after every match with a bronze brush and Shooters Choice. (probably 20-30 strokes per session, per gun) After most matches I copper clean with Sweets. Sometimes I forget or get busy and end up leaving the Sweets in the barrel for a couple of hours.

I have not yet retired a barrel because it won't shoot any more. Maybe all of my barrels are ruined and I just don't know it. Some of them have been with me for 5-6 years of this abuse and still shoot way better than I can.

I'm sure that if someone was either extremely aggressive or rough or careless they might hurt a barrel but I think regular cleanings are a good thing. I do believe in bore guides and use them on the bolt action guns. I don't like the price of the ones for the contender barrels so I do without a bore guide on those.

Just my 2 cents worth.
Joe

There is a way to ruin a barrel with a bronze brush. If you reverse the direction of travel before the brush has exited the bore at the crown, the bristles can scratch the bore. You say, "No way, because bronze is softer than steel." Yes way, because the ends of the bristles are sharp and can nick and scratch the steel, just like the edge of a piece of paper can cut your skin.

That being said, Krieger is consistent. By telling you not to exit the bore and not to use a bronze brush, they are eliminating the possibility of damage by that cause.

Fast Ed

Sounds like so much to me.

I think the Krieger folk know what they're talking about. Good custom barrels are lapped to a specific finish. Having said that, another danger with brass bristle bore brushes is that over time, the cleaning solvents attack the copper in the bronze/brass alloy bristles. If you don't quickly remove the bore cleaning solution with hot water (which I never have at the range where most of my cleaning takes place while the barrel's still warm) or some other solvent, the next time you brush your barrel, you could leave a bristle or two in the bore. Should you fire a bullet over this bristle, it will iron the bristle into the barrel steel creating a depression in your bore. I have since switched to nylon bore brushes and make sure I inspect every barrel after cleaning to be sure no bore bristles or errant patch threads are left behind in the bore.

Probably more barrels ruined by improper cleaning methods than any thing else, a rod will ruin a barrel from scraping the sides of the throat without a guide...I doubt that a copper brush will harm a barrel as copper is softer than steel, but a SS brush will harm a barrel....I use mostly nylon brushes because I use Wipe Out and it eats copper brushes...

Bill Hull, the gentleman who runs Shilens barrel shop and also part owner, is a traveling buddy that goes with me to Bench Rest matches. Bill uses Wipeout, brass brushes, Butches Boreshine, and sometimes a little JB paste on his BR barrels. We do use a very expensive boreguide and keep our rods clean. He believes that a poor bore guide and a dirty whippy cleaning rod is what wears out a barrel throat. Factory barrels that have inclusions in them benefit from having copper to fill the holes. If you iron it in over a period of time it will pick up less fouling. Butch

I rarely if ever even use a brush anymore, just Hoppes #9 wet and dry till the powder is gone and then the same with CR10.

Occaisionaly on a hard headed tube (like the one on my G33/40) I will use some JB but that is it.

My tubes comes plenty clean without using a brush, just my comments not trying to change anyones way of thinking.

MD

I'd say whatever cleans your tubes then do it

my bronze brush I use on my stainless steel grill grates causes scrape marks before I throw on the elk steaks.

First of all, I do not think Krieger would forward advise simply to "cover their a$$." It might play a small role, but lets face it, they ARE custom bbl makers and their bbls ARE in high demand. So, they must know something.

I've heard many tales on why NOT to use a bronze brush in a custom bbl. I've heard stories why NOT to EVER EVER use a nylon brush in a handlapped bore. I've heard tons of tales on how ammonia KILLS the finish of your bbl.

I never take testimonials from shooters like the great David Tubbs on how many strokes he does in the bore of his rifles with a bronze brush because he likely gets new bbls for free, so it is of no consequence to him.

Bronze is softer than stainless steel. So. My hand is softer than drywall, but when my mother in law dropped one of my deer heads and broke 4" of tine off, I'll bet I could have managed a fist sized hole it my wall. Not from anger of the accident, but because she said, "it was like that."

I use bronze brushes in the custom bbls I have because the bbl maker's cleaning instructions said to. If Krieger tells you not to use a bronze brush, then don't.

I would opine that the polish used in a tumbler is worse on your bbl than a bronze brush.

Regarding the mixing of solvents, well, my background is chemistry. Do NOT mix solvents. The only mix I've done is Kroil and Shooters Choice...a 1:2 ratio. This mix does wonders for cleaning. Butches Bore Shine is excellent. Montana Extreme BMG 50 is excellent++.

Doc, what caustic compounds form when you mix solvents? I can see that ammonia containing cleaners, when mixed with other cleaners, might produce something BAD. What if the "mixes" don't contain ammonia?

quote:

Originally posted by Ackley Improved User:
What if the "mixes" don't contain ammonia?

AIU, what it boils down to is WE DON'T KNOW. Anytime you mix a solvent with another, and they are both of the same or similar compounds, then "like disolves like." And unlike does not mix with unlike---oil and water so to speak.

An ammonia free solution isn't necessarily caustic free if mixed with a similar compound. When solvents are blended for a finished product, say BBS, these finished solvents are tested and generally classed as "mild", "medium", and "aggressive" in terms of cleaning ability.

When a "foreign" agent, no matter the compound is thrown into a proven mix, it's not that the new solution CAUSES PROBLEMS AND IS A NO NO. Rather, it is simply a risk. The mixing of chemicals is risky until a known outcome is established. For our application, then especially on a given surface, like the bore of a rifle.

The same concept holds true for fabric cleaners and guards. The labels state: "Be sure to test an nonvisible area to test for color fasting before using this product."

It would make sense that, 1) if Kroil is safe for a bore, and 2)CR-10 is designed for a bore, and 3) Wipe out is proven for a bore, etc., then how can mixing them become harmful regardless of presence or absence of ammonia?

Personally, I do not see the immediate harm if the "mix" is left for a very short timeframe. However, not all of us clean the rifles the same, and not all steel comes from Crucible the same, and not all factory/custom bbls test to the exact same Rockwell, and not all lapping compound is identical, and on and on.

The only proven harmless "mix" that I've experienced and had years of hearsay from experienced riflesmiths is Shooters Choice/Kroil...a "mild" cleaner.

Ultimately, if you haven't figured it out, I am a "evidence based" person and if there is no need to create a "risk" of damage, then why bother?

Finally, I would need evidence that a "mix" is far superior to any other standard blend you can buy. We live in a world of plenty/surplus when it comes to our shooting sport. I do not have the time or energy to try and reinvent the wheel when all of our cleaning products have been shown to be effective, just some more than others.

And on top of all of this, we actually have to worry about caustic fumes we may breath in from our new "concoction" or absorb in our skin, as if the standard ones aren't dangerous already.

Anyway, sorry for the longwinded response.

All the claims may have good merit with bore guides and coated one piece rods and stuff. I don't doubt it at all, but I sometimes think we overcomplicate things. For 20 yrs I have cleaned my 7mm08 with screw together cleaning rods and never used a bore guide. Two weeks ago I got my tightest group at .230. Am I wrong in my cleaning method? I don't know, but it has not harmed anything in 20 yrs.

quote:

Originally posted by Dwight:
For 20 yrs I have cleaned my 7mm08 with screw together cleaning rods and never used a bore guide. Two weeks ago I got my tightest group at .230. Am I wrong in my cleaning method?

Obviously not!

Doc, I know exactly where your coming from. My grandfather had an old remington 30/06 for over thirty years. He didn't take too good of care of it particularly, sometimes going many months without cleaning, and when he did clean it, it was in more of a wreckless manner than anything. Last year i inherited this rifle on account of his passing, so i decided to put it to use. I was quite suprised when i took it to the range, where the rather stubby 19 inch barrel managed two sub .5" groups in a row, both with some old remington core lokt bullets that i recieved with it. Now with customized reloads, i am squeezing off groups i can hardly achieve with my best rifles.

My opinion is that many technical papers are written to help sell products in every industry. That supports our economy. This does not discount the fact that all the new cleaning tools and methods don't have merit but a person can shoot quite well without all that stuff.

from now on I will use the simple solution to this problem. I will run the brush all the way through, unscrew it, pull the rod out, and start all over again.

quote:

All the claims may have good merit with bore guides and coated one piece rods and stuff. I don't doubt it at all, but I sometimes think we overcomplicate things. For 20 yrs I have cleaned my 7mm08 with screw together cleaning rods and never used a bore guide. Two weeks ago I got my tightest group at .230. Am I wrong in my cleaning method? I don't know, but it has not harmed anything in 20 yrs.

Ditto what Dwight posted.Only I've been cleaning my rifles pistols,revolvers and shotguns the same way for 42 years.
I use screw togethers,one piece and bore snakes.I like Sweets to scrub out the copper and Butch's to finish it.

I been rollin' around with the better half pretty much the same way for 35 years(with a few variations)with no damage to the crown or throat erosion.
Wonder what pointers the boys at Krieger could give me on that.

quote:

Originally posted by 22WRF:
from now on I will use the simple solution to this problem. I will run the brush all the way through, unscrew it, pull the rod out, and start all over again.

Hey, don't forget to wipe your rod dry before each pass.

I have a .223 frank white/blackstar barrel on one of my H-bars,,liked it so much,I sent my rem. sendero in .300 win mag. for them to work over,very little fouling in either,good accuracy. Blackstar is very adamant about not putting anything with ammonia through the bore.
The only non-ammonia product I have found is break free bore cleaner,,And you don't really need to brush it,,swab it down,,and come back in 30 min. a couple dry patches and its sparkly clean. Clay

quote:

POLETAX: Ditto what Dwight posted.Only I've been cleaning my rifles pistols,revolvers and shotguns the same way for 42 years.
I use screw togethers,one piece and bore snakes.I like Sweets to scrub out the copper and Butch's to finish it.

I been rollin' around with the better half pretty much the same way for 35 years(with a few variations)with no damage to the crown or throat erosion.
Wonder what pointers the boys at Krieger could give me on that.

You've been doing this with custom bbls? Factory bbls?

Whats a ruined barrel? Won't shoot 1/4" groups? 1", 2", won't hit a pie plate? How would one prove the cleaning is the culprit? If I never clean it, will my barrel last longer?

Ammonia will attack steel, so will chlorine, sulfuric acid and even will plain 'ol water. Add some salt and water will do some real nasty work on steel. But ammonia also does the biz on copper, and that is why we use the stuff, to rid ourselves of copper fouling.

The major culprit of barrel erosion is heat. Everything else, including bad cleaning practices come second. The best thing we can do to keep our barrels intact is to allow cooling time between shots. If you wait untill the barrel is hot to the touch before allowing it to cool, you've waited too long, and some of your barrle has exited the bore.

Some shooting disiplines don't allow this as they game is based oround the number of shots fired in a given time. In those cases we accept barrel wear and erosion as part of the game. The use of cast bullets and low pressure loads can greatly extend a barrels life, but a typical 308/30-06 or something like fired with full power jacketed bullet loads is going to give about 7000 good rounds. After that all bets are off.

For Krieger to say this nonsense is it's own kind of BS. More than a few posters said "If Krieger said it, it must be true", but even Einstien was wrong on some things, none of us are infallible.

What would be real nice would be for Krieger to publish some data and pictures of what a barrel ruined from cleaning looks like. Bet if you ask for that you'll wait for a long time for an answer.

Can you ruin a barrel by cleaning? Probably, but like most things it will have more to do with the idiot behind the rod than the materials being used. And I doubt any of us would call it cleaning.

Probably more barrels ruined by a lack of cleaning than anything else. And using a BoreSnake is the same as not cleaning at all.

Dwight I agree 100%.

Maybe I best stop shooting copper bullets there ruining my barrel they don't use a guide going in and they go past the crown on the way out, my poor barrel i'm just going to hang old besty on the wall and look at it.

Hot Core, what makes you say that?

Rust and battery errosion creating Pits!

Moisture from regular old Humidity will work it's way between the spots where Copper is present and begin eating away at the steel creating pits.

This morning it is 100% Relative Humidity where I am. Fog in the area and would be absolutely perfect for sneaking through leaves while Hunting. People with some experience in Hunting know that as well and look forward to mornings like this. Also, when the rain has stopped and is still dripping off the trees, or even in a light drizzle(with no lightning) - perfect sneaking. Also washes your scent away.

So, if you hunt in the Southeast with high humidity, your killing chances are better.
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When you think of most dirty barrels, you have the barrel steel, thin layers of residue from the Powder and thin layers of Copper. As the moisture is absorbed into the Powder Residue, very tiny batteries are created. Electrons transfer from the Barrel Steel and leave tiny Pits.

This happens to various degrees depending on the amount of moisture absorbed by the Powder Residue. It can even happen inside a house if you have the shower going a lot and the house is sealed well.

The Pits contiune to grow larger over time. As they get larger, they provide more area for the Powder Residue and Copper which increases the size of the battery and more steel is removed.

Pits never improve. At some point they will effect accuracy. For people who's shots are close, it might never create a noticable problem. For people who have the ability to kill things out aways, pits can eventually open groups in erratic patterns.
---

As for the BoreSnake, if all you are interested in doing is wiping some Powder Residue "around" in your barrel, it will do the job. Once you pull it through, it is dirty. So, you can continue pulling the dirty BoreSnake through, or go wash and dry it after each pass through the barrel, then use it again. Have you ever seen anyone recommend that you continue to "clean" a barrel with "dirty patches"?

If you want a clean barrel, the BoreSnake is worthless. Best use I've seen for one was a guy at the Range had his Cleaning Box tied together with a BoreSnake because the latch was broken.

Hello US1,
I see you are from Alaska. I have had 5 wondeful fishing trips up there in the Kenai and one of these days I would like to do some hunting up there as well.
Dwight